6d2 is here.

CheshireCat wrote in post #18416826
Yup, that is exactly my point.
Now, we all know that the camera market is declining globally. How come Sony (and others) are investing in R&D and releasing innovative products at such a fast pace, while Canon is mostly focused on cost-reduction ?

Canon may be watching closely and trying to avoid whatever it is that imperiled Nikon financially. Both manufacturers appear to have too many models. They may be making a prudent business decision creating a clear separation between the 6D and 5D series to reduce R&D costs among other things. That doesn't explain the 77D though.

Canon is a diverse business. It could have operations that are sinking faster than ILCs. If the company wants to survive it may have to make short term choices that ensure the long term health of the organization.

Sony is not afraid to fail tackling new markets. If a product has a transitor, IC or laser in it, Sony will take a crack at it. Hats off to them for the effort but they probably have more abandoned formats, series and outside ventures than any company on the planet.

They do have their moments of brilliance though. I still remember the "My First Sony" campaign when I was a kid. It was genius. "Made in Japan" was coming on strong and they had a string of successes with the Walkman, Discman and camcorders. Those were the days.

Lee

Dlee13 wrote in post #18416631
Not everyone cares about base ISO DR.

Checked my LR catalog. Out of 12k photos taken on Canon DSLRs

22% ISO 100
18% ISO 125-320
60% ISO 400-25600

I primarily photograph events in the worst indoor flash-free venues imaginable, family pj-ish stuff, birds, aircraft and occasionally outdoor sports & macro. Base ISO DR may be an important overall performance metric but high ISO handling would seem to have more relevance to the average dad with a fancy camera demographic I fall into.

The 6D2 could still hold on to the 6D's legacy as a reasonably priced good high ISO performer.

Incidentally, I spent a fair amount of time researching my first DSLR, a 6D + 24-105, before I bought it. I actually wanted the 7D2 but it wasn't out yet. And I think it was that dork Northrup that convinced me I "needed" full frame. I had reservations about the 6D and seriously wanted the D610. If I remember correctly there were issues with D610 oil spots, live view wasn't as good as Canon and Nikon bodies & lenses were noticeably higher priced at the time. Ergonomics, menu system and price swung me to Canon.

Canon reliability has been 100% for me. That's a key consideration for my next hardware investment. Nikon isn't inspiring confidence in that regard.

The 6D2 release feels like the worst Christmas ever. We asked for that top of the line thing all our Sony & Nikon friends are getting and our parents got us the cheap dollar store knock off. Might as well have asked for socks and underwear.

Still, socks and underwear are never not useful. Certainly not glamorous, as in hey check out these gnarly argyles, but they get the job done.

Lee

DaviSto wrote in post #18416868
You have a point, I can't deny it.

But I have this bigger/grander concern about how the internet is distorting and manipulating discussion and debate. The 6Dii discussion is a case in point.
BTW, where I am, a joint would be easier to come by than a beer (and beer is available everywhere) but the risks involved would extend beyond prosecution within the law. So ... I am grateful that the local stout is exceptionally good.

We are all grown ups here, I am not sure why you have a concern. I think we can tell what is BS on the internet and what isn't. I suspect the average age here is probably late 30s, so hopefully everyone can figure this out on their own.

I haven't looked into our local IPAs recently, but I think I had heard of a new supplier!

ma11rats wrote in post #18416828
Sony is NOT replacing at the same speed it once was. They were on a 1 year replacement.(a7/a7r/a7​s/a6000/a6300/ were all on a 18mo or less cycle) The a7ii came out 3 years ago this fall. a7rii came out 2 years ago and that doesn't have a replacement date as of yet if I'm not mistaken. Both replaced their first version around the 1 year mark.

Indeed, Sony rushed the first models to catch up at an amazing speed, and then slowed down a bit.
However, if you count the A9, they are still releasing cameras - and especially innovative technologies - at a very fast pace.

It is not hard to come up with a new camera model. It is hard to come up with a new camera model with innovative state-of-the-art technologies. And that brings us back on topic

CheshireCat wrote in post #18416885
Indeed, Sony rushed the first models to catch up at an amazing speed, and then slowed down a bit.
However, if you count the A9, they are still releasing cameras - and especially innovative technologies - at a very fast pace.

It is not hard to come up with a new camera model. It is hard to come up with a new camera model with innovative state-of-the-art technologies. And that brings us back on topic

Agreed. But take into consideration that Sony may very well had their plans on that a9 when the first a7 came out. So that's a 4-5 year deliver timeframe??? Clearly there was some time in development for that first a7 but the a9 requires a whole different set of parameters to come close to the d5/1dx line(which was the goal, no?). Hence the extra time in R&D
So 'entry' FF body, high rez FF body, Video focused FF body, Sports FF body. That makes sense when proposing the A line originally.
All in all it's pretty awesome. And if I didn't hate how the a(line) fits in my hand, I'd probably have 1 in my bag by now.

Canon might be 'playing it safe' in an environment where it has a different set of parameters(to Sony) of people they have to impress(stockholders)?​?? All they need to do is meet the sales goals they set when the 6d2 was presented to the board of directors.
I think we all agree their marketing team does their job well.

I'm still more disappointed in the single card slot than the base ISO DR issue. ESPECIALLY if I plan(ned) on using it in dark churches and dark reception halls.

Once you've reached the head of the pack, it's probably prudent to slow rate of acceleration (or rate of new developments) to just enough to stay in the lead.

Folks, you need to stick to the discussion of the equipment and stay off of the personal bickering. I've pruned this thread a bit.

We try to maintain a helpful community here. Personal attacks go against that goal. We will not allow that to continue. Some of you need to re-read the rules before posting again. Pay particular attention to the one that says, "Don't be a jerk."

I hope this is the last time we have to address this in this thread.

Carry on.

T.D.
Moderator

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18416506
Unless you have been under a rock for the past month, and haven't seen the leaked raw files, then the real files from production level 6D2s, and then the reviews by DPReview, then yes, I guess I could see how you think this is all conjecture.

In any case, here is the 6D and 6d2 DR, and it shows right around ISO 800, they get quite close. It also shows, again, why I think the 6D2 sensor has more to do with the 5D3, but with a better noise characteristic and more detail acquisition, meaning higher ISO is better. It also shows that if you are a DR junkie and shoot under ISO 800, you might reconsider the upgrade. If you are one that shoots over ISO 800, you probably would love switching up to the 6D2.

This is not one of those "visual observation and my subjective views", this is about as good as you get with bonafide mathematics behind the performance of the bodies in question. Whatever you do, don't add the 5D4 to that chart, it is very nearly the king of bodies right now, in some areas better than the 1DX2.

http://photonstophotos​.net …on%20EOS%206D%2​0Mark%20II

Hosted photo: posted by TeamSpeed in
./showthread.php?p=184​16506&i=i43186363
forum: Canon Digital Cameras

Looks like they just added a few pixels to the 6d sensor and didn't otherwise improve it. I wonder if the difference in the plot points is just due to some slight measurement (experiment) variation and not an actual difference in the sensors.....

patrick j wrote in post #18417053
You know, in addition to the Like button, I sometimes wish there was a Dislike or Thumbs down button. This is one of those times.

I thought the button under the username, to the right of 'more info' was the 'thumbs down' button.

DaviSto wrote in post #18416449
... at base ISO ...

Which is what I think of when I hear "DR", unqualified. It means the highest DR available at any ISO setting, usually the lowest one. Including DR at higher ISOs in an overall assessment of a camera's DR is pointless, when it is base ISO where it is most useful, and varies most from camera to camera.

Bassat wrote in post #18417136
I thought the button under the username, to the right of 'more info' was the 'thumbs down' button.

More Info | Report go to the same screen... And why would you report somebody just because you don't agree with them?

Also I understood the sentiment... the poster that was replied to there was calling landscape shooters complainers, simply because in that person's limited view, there just isn't any reason for them to complain about DR. That is the typical behavior we are seeing here, there are those that don't shoot the same things AND cannot put themselves into others' shoes, so they belittle them, by trying to make themselves seem the expert on the situation. Not many, but I can count something like 8-10 such posters in this thread alone, and they are the ones putting everything on a negative trajectory. There are one or two just stirring the pot with personal attacks and getting away with it, and pretty soon I believe, a mod will have to step in and put them in timeout.

I just haven't seen the opposite here, where low ISO DR shooters are telling high ISO shooters that they are stupid or that they don't expose properly with strobes/flash or that they are doing the shoot wrong just because they don't understand the need or situation. It seems very slanted.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18417142
More Info | Report go to the same screen... And why would you report somebody just because you don't agree with them?

I wasn't referring to disagreeing. Intelligent adults should be able to disagree without getting personally insulting. Report the personally insulting. If the behavior isn't permitted, perhaps more of us should help the mods by pointing it out. POTN is our community. I don't see the harm in contributing to its betterment.

Bassat wrote in post #18416683
The 5DIII was supposed to be a top of the line camera. The 6DII is an upgrade to the entry-level 6D.

The 6DII has a boatload of upgrades compared to the 6D.

The one point you guys are picking on is a minute (0.2 stops) at 1 ISO setting.

Compared to a 4-year-old predecessor camera. Compared to the recent Rebel and M cameras, the disadvantage is about a stop and a half.

Look, this polarity stuff is ridiculous. I don't know why people get so energetic about thumbs-up and thumbs-down monolithic assessments. You're using hyperbole here, even if you aren't the one who introduced it. The 6D2 is a very disappointing camera for anyone who wants to use new approach to exposure with more exposure latitude, and the ability to determine the final ISO exposure index on the computer with a minimum of artifact. It makes a great replacement for a film camera with slide film, with a bit more latitude, but much less than hoped for.

You're comparing to an older camera; not where cameras in general are *today*, when the 6D2 has been released.

Bassat wrote in post #18416719
Again, an irrelevant comparison. The complaint is that the 6D2 is not as good as the 6D.

No; the complaint is that it went a little backward compared to a 4-year-old camera, while entry level cameras like Rebels and M have taken a step and a half into the future.

Compare it to the M, or the latest 24MP Rebel.

Sorry, but DR is not a major engineering budget expense, and not standard these days only in top-end cameras.

The 5D4 has a reasonable sensor/ADC arrangement for the timeframe of its release. The 6D2 does not. It was introduced in an era where just about *ALL* cameras, expensive and cheap, have much more base-ISO DR.

Bassat wrote in post #18417146
I wasn't referring to disagreeing. Intelligent adults should be able to disagree without getting personally insulting. Report the personally insulting. If the behavior isn't permitted, perhaps more of us should help the mods by pointing it out. POTN is our community. I don't see the harm in contributing to its betterment.

Couldn't agree more. IMO, there is a big difference between disagreeing with someone and insulting them.