6d2 is here.

The DR issue really only matters to a minority, but then you will have a percentage that hears about it and won't buy it, however everyone else will want one where they either want to add a FF to the stables or upgrade their existing 6d. I suspect this DR issue probably has reduced sales by maybe 10-15%.

patrick j wrote in post #18418772
Dynamic Range has been kicked around a lot here, but are there other considerations besides DR in a sensor? I mean, I guess not all pixels are created equal in different sensors or we wouldn't be talking about DR, but can they also vary by sharpness? (or the sum of all pixels perhaps) I was wondering about this after looking at the comparison tool someone posted, where you can line up 4 cameras and click around on that image (I put the link below if anyone wants to see it). The 6D Mark II looks as good as any of the other cameras when simply looking at the sharpness of the image - the text on the color wheel for instance. So I'm wondering if that is something that might have been improved on while at the same time DR remains about the same?

https://www.dpreview.c​om …6435&y=0.834553​7791720969

DR is just an abstraction derived from noise. Noise exists in a spectrum, though, so a sharper lens or weaker AA filter can result in less noisy versions of highly-magnified images which don't need as much sharpening, but they do nothing for the large scale noise in the image. So, optical sharpness can compensate a little for pixel-level noise in things like murals inspected closely or 100% crops on monitors.

Lots of the noise that you see in images comes from sharpening at the original resolution to compensate for soft optics.

Too little AA filtering can create artifacts of its own, though, with very sharp lenses.

ma11rats wrote in post #18418833
Holy crap there's already a freaking ton of youtube videos on this body. So many with DR somewhere in the title and by people with less than 500 subs. Seriously a different ball game in terms of sheer number of 'reviewers' for this 6d2 vs the 6d 4-5 years ago.

Time will tell if it'll be the seller they want it to be. Will social media be a reason it doesn't perform as well, will it be a declining market? Does Canon drop the price? Does it surprise us all and sell like hot cakes?

There have to be a certain number of people enthusiastic about the camera, who have been waiting for it because the 6D was getting old, so it should sell very well at first. There are, however, a lot of people who are very disappointed in the camera in one or more ways who were going to buy it, but now are not going to, and are not going to buy the 5D4 to get a FF Canon with semi-modern DR.

Sales will be great for a while, but after a point, I suspect they will dry up quite a bit.

I am getting rather annoyed with Canon, and feel like Canon is holding me hostage with my lens collection. I'm not looking for the 5D4, because my 7D2 does the fast AF I need, and I doubt that the 5D4 has any AF edge over the 7D2 when you stick a 1.4x on the former to put as many pixel-on-subject. My next action camera was going to be the 7D3, and I'd like an inexpensive FF with good DR and nothing special in terms of AF and framerate, but Canon decided to get too stingy, and used an outdated sensor that they had already paid to design, it seems.

John Sheehy wrote in post #18418961
I am getting rather annoyed with Canon, and feel like Canon is holding me hostage with my lens collection. I'm not looking for the 5D4, because my 7D2 does the fast AF I need, and I doubt that the 5D4 has any AF edge over the 7D2 when you stick a 1.4x on the former to put as many pixel-on-subject. My next action camera was going to be the 7D3, and I'd like an inexpensive FF with good DR and nothing special in terms of AF and framerate, but Canon decided to get too stingy, and used an outdated sensor that they had already paid to design, it seems.

I agree a bit with you.

Regarding the 5D4 AF, I use it over the 7D2, the AF is better, especially in waning light. Also, I don't always need to add a TC, because I am not always shooting at the extremes of my lenses' focal length maximums. This just means I shoot at a longer focal length on the 5D4 than the 7D2, and in those cases, the 5D4 wins.

The 5D4 is the BEST well rounded camera I have used from Canon, and have used the 1D3/4 series, all of the XXD series, 5D series (other than the 50Mpx variants), and the 6D. I haven't used the 1DX series, so I cannot speak to those, other than they have lower resolutions. The only thing the 5D4 doesn't have is 10fps which I sometimes miss, but not that often. It is the first Canon DSLR that has me in a situation where I don't care any longer on what comes out, it does what I need it to for the wide variety of things I shoot. For the first time, I am putting money into other accessories like the AD200 flashes, cases, stands, etc. That hasn't happened before.

High Five List:

DP AF
30Mpx resolution
Steller AF (both AI servo and low light)
Great DR
Touchscreen
WiFi
Many features that I do actually use
Customization
High ISO, even at the JPG levels
Flicker control
Dual card slots
AFMA at both ends of a zoom
Great build quality and weather resistance

Thumbs Down List:

10fps
perhaps a tilt LCD, but I rarely need that unless I am shooting above a crowd, or a periodic ground level shot.

The 6D2 could have been a killer body had they simply stuck a smaller resolution 5D4 sensor in there. It wouldn't have hurt the 5D4 sales very much because the 5D4 is already a bit old at over 1 years old now, and a successor would already be through the design phases. 5D4 sales will go up now with what they did release though.

I am not sure what the 5DV could possibly have at this point. They won't give 10fps. They won't give it a tilt screen. They might give it more resolution. They might give it about 1/3 more stop DR and high ISO. What is left in Canon's arsenal at this time? Better question personally, what could Canon add to that line to make me want to upgrade? I am the consumer Canon loves because I have been through all their bodies over the years, however I feel no need to change over. The 7D2 and 5D4 are perfect siblings.

A FF mirrorless that takes EF/EFS glass might be the next thing that has to come out to pull out funds from my fun money account...

John Sheehy wrote in post #18418961
There have to be a certain number of people enthusiastic about the camera, who have been waiting for it because the 6D was getting old, so it should sell very well at first. There are, however, a lot of people who are very disappointed in the camera in one or more ways who were going to buy it, but now are not going to, and are not going to buy the 5D4 to get a FF Canon with semi-modern DR.

This pretty much describes me with the exception of helping it sell. Dipped my toe into FF earlier in the year with a 5Dc figuring it was a safe way to try it with little downside while waiting for the next 6D to be announced. I wanted a better AF, a little improvement in frame rate, flip screen, and a better sensor given it being the next model. Video was not a concern. Full frame made primes interesting for me vs on crop (not trying to stir a crop vs FF tangent) and figured those plus a 16-35 f4is would replace my 70D, 10-22, and 15-85 for everything except wildlife, so was really excited when the announcement was made. Fast forward and the clustered AF I'm not so sure of, and what could be little IQ upside over the 6D gives me pause if it's worth the 1K premium over the 6D. Makes me think I sit on what I've got and wait for the 7D3 to replace the 70D.

John Sheehy wrote in post #18418961
I am getting rather annoyed with Canon, and feel like Canon is holding me hostage with my lens collection.

Yes. I've been looking at other brands and I keep coming back to the problem of lenses. Seems I'm stuck with Canon too and thus have the same problem you do: I want an affordable ff body but I'd like it to not have 5 year old sensor tech on board. Your "rather annoyed" doesn't quite cover it for me...

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18418967
It wouldn't have hurt the 5D4 sales very much because the 5D4 is already a bit old at over 2 years old now, and a successor would already be through the design phases, and into testing/QA.

The 5D4 is only 1 year old now.

John Sheehy wrote in post #18418955
DR is just an abstraction derived from noise.

It is more correct to say that DR computation _also_ involves SNR measurement, in order to compute the DR lower end.

In other words, a 6D2 and a D810 can both expose correctly (ETTR) for the sky in a high contrast scene (just use a short enough exposure time to avoid sensor clipping).
The problem is that when bringing up the shadows, the 6D2 will have so much noise in the lower signal levels that it is impossible to tell some of them apart. This "impossible" is defined by means of accepting only levels that exceed an acceptable SNR value.

Bjoernyy wrote in post #18419016
The 5D4 is only 1 year old now.

Old school...I should have waited for the 5D5

Actually not even technically 1 year yet. Awesome camera!

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18418927
The DR issue really only matters to a minority, but then you will have a percentage that hears about it and won't buy it, however everyone else will want one where they either want to add a FF to the stables or upgrade their existing 6d. I suspect this DR issue probably has reduced sales by maybe 10-15%.

Though the DR issue is a deal killer for me, there are other shortcomings as well that may be important to others. Lack of 4K makes this camera look old when compared to others, shutter limited to 1/4000, no built in flash put them together and this body just looks old.

Bjoernyy wrote in post #18419016
The 5D4 is only 1 year old now.

Oops true, updated my post, it feels like I have had it for 2 years now, I have used it so much.

gjl711 wrote in post #18419037
Though the DR issue is a deal killer for me, there are other shortcomings as well that may be important to others. Lack of 4K makes this camera look old when compared to others, shutter limited to 1/4000, no built in flash put them together and this body just looks old.

4K video is a software thing, not a sensor thing, I would presume, and should have been on it.

Not personally sure about the onboard flash, I rarely ever use my 7D2 onboard flash, so maybe that is for others, it wouldn't be for me. One can pick up a 270ex pretty inexpensively. Or if you think you are ever moving to all the Godox flashes with R2, just get this. https://www.bhphotovid​eo.com …Ng5m0uMKPmNcziR​oC7j_w_wcB

1/4000th is a concern when I have really fast primes, but again not quite as large a concern, as perhaps a faster sync speed, at least for me?

If they had the new sensor with low ISO DR and as good high ISO as it has now, throw in 1/250th sync, reduced the burst rate a bit (5 or 5.5fps), and added 4K video with the newer codec, even as a cropped mode, they probably could have eliminated all the bad press, added $200 to the price (???), and had a huge hit on their hands. Would it have cut into the 5D4 sales? I am not sure.

John Sheehy wrote in post #18418961
I am getting rather annoyed with Canon, and feel like Canon is holding me hostage with my lens collection.

Canon is trying to, but has already failed with me.

I waited years for a good replacement of my 5D2, getting more and more annoyed every year, and at every 5D-whatever release.

But I had the money to buy a Sony A7R2 with Metabones adapter. I swallowed the price and I did. That is now my state-of-the-art "Canon" body for my EF lenses.
AF is working great (actually better than with many Canon bodies), but still can't compete with my 1Dx for fast moving subjects. No more focus calibration nonsense.
All my unstabilized EF lenses now are "IS" thanks to in-body stabilization.
Yes, Sony's user interface is an abomination, but you can reprogram almost every button of the camera, which works well enough for me.
Colors, dynamic range, and noise performance are awesome.
The camera is super-compact and can mount small MF primes (Loxia 21/2.8 highly recommended). I now carry the big camera bag only when I need my Canon lenses

The onboard flash doesn't matter to me as well but if your targeting entry level folks it seems like a miss.

Sony has come a long way, but there are still things, at least at the time this article was written, that keeps me from looking at Sony.

http://sebimagery.com …y-the-a7r2-is-not-for-you

So what can Canon bring to the table they don't already have? Just some while ideas of mine, along with a few echo'd by others:

- better DR still, more to go
- In body stabilization
- eye focus control (had it years ago with film, albeit a simplied AF system though)
- better wireless tethering (better app, and functions)
- modular dual card slots (CF, CFAST and SD are well known interfaces, so why not create a modular system, and have users "design" their own perfect dual card layout)
- full frame 4K with newest more agile codec (but would take away from 1D series too much perhaps?)
- IR mode (could they design an AA filter system where 2 filters can be swapped in-camera from AA to IR? Perhaps too much room required, but with some R&D, I am sure they could figure this out.
- Why stop there? How about 3 AA filter options? AA, no AA, IR? Or do the 5DSR trick, and have only 2 filters, a canceling AA and an IR, to get 3 options.
- USB 3.0 for pete's sake
- Convert flip screen into a removable remote monitor with small base that supplies power and BT communications
- Go farther with dual pixel to do dual ISO, like what ML did years ago with the older bodies
- Use rating button to denote which images should automatically be transmitted to connected device (much like old Eye Fi functions) instead of having to pull them from the device itself
- ISO bracketing (even though I guess we might have a form of this with one of the high ISO options on some
models)
- Focus bracketing with selectable # of frames centered around the current focus point.
- Ability to save settings to card, shouldn't be a 1D series only thing, also add capabilities to DPP or other app to create a settings file, or edit one, instead of just in-camera.
- Automated "Brenizer method" merge of frames

Some of these ideas create accessories that could be purchased, and thus a potential additional revenue source.