6d2 is here.

This is interesting, and also touches the 6D2:

https://www.dpreview.c​om …nies-are-not-your-friends

CheshireCat wrote in post #18420545
This is interesting, and also touches the 6D2:

https://www.dpreview.c​om …nies-are-not-your-friends

Good balanced article.

Wilt wrote in post #18420492
It is easier to achieve 1/8000 with APS-C frame size than with FF frame size. In the case of the 6D/6DII shutter, its lower lifetime expectancy is most likely reflective of the fact that lower cost components with lower ultimate durability went into the manufacture of its shutter vs. those in the 5Dn and in the 1Dn shutters, which themselves are stratified by Canon for lifetime cycle count.

Faster shutters translate into the need for lighter weight shutter curtains, etc. which makes for inherently lower durability. So the durability has to be engineered back into the mechanism, perhaps with more-durable more-expensive lightweight metals.

For the above reasons, it is easy to understand that the 6D/6DII limitations in both max shutter speed AND in its max X-sync speed are NOT necessarily Canon Marketing stratification alone, with software crippling the camera's performance, but may well be engineered in by selection of cost saving components. You cannot put in as much cost into a $2000 camera as you can put into a $4000 camera!

I have been thinking about this for a bit and finally found a slow motion youtube that shows the shutter in action. After watching this it is clear that the shutter travels at exactly the same speed no matter what the shutter speed is set to. 1/1000, 1/2000. 1/4000, or 1/8000 the shutter moves at the same speed. The timing is achieved by the difference between the firing of the first curtain and the second curtain. I'll also bet that the speed between a FF and crop camera shutters are not all that different though I haven't found a vid that shows the two side by side.

This means that the only reason that the 6D or 6DII is limited to 1/4000 is because Canon wanted to limit it. There is no technical reason that the 6D or 6DII could not be fired at 1/8000. If fact, looking at the video it looks like there is still room for more speed/ Come on guys, lets see 1/16000.

https://youtu.be/CmjeC​chGRQo?t=171

CheshireCat wrote in post #18420545
This is interesting, and also touches the 6D2:

https://www.dpreview.c​om …nies-are-not-your-friends

Very interesting. I think its an unbiased look at reality.

gjl711 wrote in post #18420553
I have been thinking about this for a bit and finally found a slow motion youtube that shows the shutter in action. After watching this it is clear that the shutter travels at exactly the same speed no matter what the shutter speed is set to. 1/1000, 1/2000. 1/4000, or 1/8000 the shutter moves at the same speed. The timing is achieved by the difference between the firing of the first curtain and the second curtain. I'll also bet that the speed between a FF and crop camera shutters are not all that different though I haven't found a vid that shows the two side by side.

The same shutter speed would require a 1.6x faster shutter curtain movement for FF.

This means that the only reason that the 6D or 6DII is limited to 1/4000 is because Canon wanted to limit it. There is no technical reason that the 6D or 6DII could not be fired at 1/8000. If fact, looking at the video it looks like there is still room for more speed/ Come on guys, lets see 1/16000.

https://youtu.be/CmjeC​chGRQo?t=171

Well, there could also be the issue of accuracy. The smaller the slit, the more perfectly it has to be spaced, not to create luminance banding in the image, because the same inaccuracy concentrates over a smaller area.

I've seen this at 1/8000 with HSS (high speed sync). I didn't check at the time if it was the flash or the blades that were inconsistent.

Yes, although I do not agree with the conclusion:

In my experience, engineering finds out what the product could do, and marketing decides what the product will do.
In that sense, most marketing dept are there to castrate the specs and maximize profit for the company (ironically, often with opposite results).

Therefore, in my opinion, the conclusion should say "in spite of".

gjl711 wrote in post #18420553
I have been thinking about this for a bit and finally found a slow motion youtube that shows the shutter in action. After watching this it is clear that the shutter travels at exactly the same speed no matter what the shutter speed is set to. 1/1000, 1/2000. 1/4000, or 1/8000 the shutter moves at the same speed. The timing is achieved by the difference between the firing of the first curtain and the second curtain. I'll also bet that the speed between a FF and crop camera shutters are not all that different though I haven't found a vid that shows the two side by side.

This means that the only reason that the 6D or 6DII is limited to 1/4000 is because Canon wanted to limit it. There is no technical reason that the 6D or 6DII could not be fired at 1/8000. If fact, looking at the video it looks like there is still room for more speed/ Come on guys, lets see 1/16000.

https://youtu.be/CmjeC​chGRQo?t=171

for sure, unless they're using an ancient shutter. does canon even have a shutter that slow previously? All 5D's were 1/8000 right?

A9 1/32000

I spent a lifetime in product marketing. If you think I would deliberately castrate my product, have another think!

I might 'hobble' a product so that Premium Product has 'the best' while my Mainstream Product is 'second best', and I price the two so that I can achieve the greatest profit from both products in combination.
But I would be foolish if I could easily differentiate my product(s) from my competition with higher spec and easily win the sales of more units, but I deliberately hold back in spec!

There is only one situation in which I might 'hold back' for a while...
If my best spec clearly outperforms the competition, and IF get away with offering a product with MARGINALLY better performance (while still beating my competition), I might 'hold back' so that I have in my back pocket an even better performing product with which I can 'leap forward' suddenly ahead of my competition immediately after they launch a 'competitive' alternative to my 2X product.

For example, lets say my competition achieves X performance, and my absolute best achievable is 3X...

1. I might decide to today offer a product which is 2X performance, so that (perhaps 1-2 years from now) I can launch a 3X product as a replacement successor to my 2X product.
   
2. Or for example, lets say my competition achieves X performance, and my absolute best achievable is 4X...I might decide to today offer a product which is 2X performance, so that (perhaps 1-2 years from now) I can launch a 3X product as a replacement successor to my 2X product AND I also launch a 4X product to totally create a new market segment!
   

John Sheehy wrote in post #18420559
The same sync speed would require a 1.6x faster shutter curtain movement for FF..

This is only for the speed of the shutter and not sync speed. I think it's clear from the video that 1/4000 is a arbitrary limit not based on hardware. There is no extra stress trying to make the blades fire faster or lighter materials needed. It's just a timing between the two shutters that govern the final exposure.

John Sheehy wrote in post #18420559
Well, there could also be the issue of accuracy. The smaller the slit, the more perfectly it has to be spaced, not to create luminance banding in the image, because the same inaccuracy concentrates over a smaller area.

I've seen this at 1/8000 with HSS (high speed sync). I didn't check at the time if it was the flash or the blades that were inconsistent.

Possibly. The greater the slit size, the less the impact of a slight deviation in timing.

gjl711 wrote in post #18420577
This is only for the speed of the shutter and not sync speed.

Sorry, I don't know why I inserted the word "sync" in there. I will edit it out.

gjl711 wrote in post #18420553
I have been thinking about this for a bit and finally found a slow motion youtube that shows the shutter in action. After watching this it is clear that the shutter travels at exactly the same speed no matter what the shutter speed is set to. 1/1000, 1/2000. 1/4000, or 1/8000 the shutter moves at the same speed. The timing is achieved by the difference between the firing of the first curtain and the second curtain. I'll also bet that the speed between a FF and crop camera shutters are not all that different though I haven't found a vid that shows the two side by side.

This means that the only reason that the 6D or 6DII is limited to 1/4000 is because Canon wanted to limit it. There is no technical reason that the 6D or 6DII could not be fired at 1/8000. If fact, looking at the video it looks like there is still room for more speed/ Come on guys, lets see 1/16000.

https://youtu.be/CmjeC​chGRQo?t=171

In the case of Canon APS-C vs. FF, I will not argue the point of relative linear rates of curtain motion across the frame opening.
But consider this generality (as seen in large format focal plane shutters vs. subminiature format (135) focal plane shutters...

• smaller frame = less vertical and less horizontal blade dimension
  
• less blade dimension = less material in curtain = less mass
  
• less mass = better ability to accelerate/decelerate the curtain to its max linear speed
  
• better ability to acceleration rate = 'faster speed' (exposure time)
  

Yes, if two FF cameras have different max speeds, it is very likely 'software' limits the slower camera WHEN the shutter is otherwise identical. Without dissecting cameras and examining the shutter mechanisms in detail, we have to GUESS that the shutters are identical. We know that the Canon EOS620 film camera electronic shutter max'd out at 1/4000. Who knows if those older designs were not the basis for the 6D/6DII shutters?!

CheshireCat wrote in post #18420561
Yes, although I do not agree with the conclusion:

In my experience, engineering finds out what the product could do, and marketing decides what the product will do.
In that sense, most marketing dept are there to castrate the specs and maximize profit for the company (ironically, often with opposite results).

Therefore, in my opinion, the conclusion should say "in spite of".

As an engineer in my company's R&D division, I would tend to agree. I know what our technology CAN do, but the marketing and product groups tell us what they want and when, i.e. what the market wants. I can only hope that they know what they are doing.

gjl711 wrote in post #18420553
I have been thinking about this for a bit and finally found a slow motion youtube that shows the shutter in action. After watching this it is clear that the shutter travels at exactly the same speed no matter what the shutter speed is set to. 1/1000, 1/2000. 1/4000, or 1/8000 the shutter moves at the same speed. The timing is achieved by the difference between the firing of the first curtain and the second curtain. I'll also bet that the speed between a FF and crop camera shutters are not all that different though I haven't found a vid that shows the two side by side.

This means that the only reason that the 6D or 6DII is limited to 1/4000 is because Canon wanted to limit it. There is no technical reason that the 6D or 6DII could not be fired at 1/8000. If fact, looking at the video it looks like there is still room for more speed/ Come on guys, lets see 1/16000.

https://youtu.be/CmjeC​chGRQo?t=171

As far as I know this is the way SLR type camera shutters always worked. At least for the 40+ years since I bought my first SLR. There were some variations though. I have two SLRs here: one has vertical shutter curtain movement while the other is horizontal. The only practical difference is the flash sync speed is different between the two cameras.

Rod

RodS57 wrote in post #18420605
As far as I know this is the way SLR type camera shutters always worked. At least for the 40+ years since I bought my first SLR. There were some variations though. I have two SLRs here: one has vertical shutter curtain movement while the other is horizontal. The only practical difference is the flash sync speed is different between the two cameras.

Rod

In spite of the fact that Canon EOS cameras have used vertical travel metal blades, with all speeds electronically controlled, the max speeds and X-sync speeds are different


Shutter Speed:
EOS 650 --1/2000 max. X-sync is 1/125 sec.
EOS 620 --1/4000 max. X-sync is 1/250 sec.
EOS 1 -- 1/8000 max. X-sync is 1/250
EOS 1Ds -- 1/8000 mx. X-sync is 1/250
EOS 5DIV -- 1/8000 max. X-sync is 1/200
EOS 6D -- 1/4000 max. X-sync is 1/180

I think that the max SYNC speed is the speed at which the shutter is fully open thus firing the flash exposes the entire frame. The difference between a FF and crop SYNC speed would make sense as a crop camera has less distance to travel so the time when it fully opens is a but shorter than a ff camera.