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Thread started 28 Jun 2017 (Wednesday) 23:15
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6d2 is here.

 
basketballfreak6
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Aug 01, 2017 00:53 |  #1441

i tried 6DII at local camera store today and took a few snaps in the store (silly me forgot to take the same snaps with my 5D3 to make proper comparisons, and my 5D4 is with Canon atm)

but my very subjective findings:

i think high ISO is nice, 12800 looks very good to me (plenty of details and easy to clean up, nice noise pattern)

at ISO 100 and underexposed 4 stops, i definitely would not hesistate pushing 2 stops, even 3 stops i would still be happy with, 4 stops the blacks get very bandy and blotchy BUT the mid tones still look very good

so without proper side by side comparison just going off top of my head i'd say the 6D2 is definitely better than the 5D3 but not quite as good as the 5D4


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CheshireCat
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Aug 01, 2017 00:55 |  #1442

mwsilver wrote in post #18416000 (external link)
He also implies that at higher ISOs shadow recovery is good and invites you to download his examples to see for yourself.

The fact you could live with the 6D2 shadow/higlight recovery is one thing.

The fact you could have a much better shadow/highlight recovery with a modern sensor, and shoot without worrying as much about the right exposure (and avoid bracketing), is a totally different thing that he fails to recognize.

To recap, we are not saying that the 6D2 is a bad camera. We are just saying that it is technologically quite inferior to what we expect from a brand new full-frame camera in 2017.
And keep in mind that - ironically - beginners/amateurs are the ones who would benefit more from a higher exposure flexibility to recover incorrectly exposed shots.


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elitejp
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Aug 01, 2017 01:01 |  #1443

mwsilver wrote in post #18415797 (external link)
Her work is quite good IMHO. She uses the original 6D and a Canon 24-70 f/2.8 USM II. I'm sure the 6D II would be a very desirable step up for her.

See im in the opposite opinion. I would think because she is a professional and knows how to work around the limitations of the 6d that she would not be interested in getting the 6d2. If she was needing to upgrade the 6d2 wouldnt even be a consideration.
For me the 6d suits me well and helps me take great pictures. But since its limitations dont hinder me such as fps or af points then i can only imagine my best upgrade path would be a sony mirrorless. If i can work around what the 6d offers than working around what a sony mirrorless with a converter should be just as easy.


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Aug 01, 2017 01:41 |  #1444

CheshireCat wrote in post #18416052 (external link)
The fact you could live with the 6D2 shadow/higlight recovery is one thing.

The fact you could have a much better shadow/highlight recovery with a modern sensor, and shoot without worrying as much about the right exposure (and avoid bracketing), is a totally different thing that he fails to recognize.

To recap, we are not saying that the 6D2 is a bad camera. We are just saying that it is technologically quite inferior to what we expect from a brand new full-frame camera in 2017.
And keep in mind that - ironically - beginners/amateurs are the ones who would benefit more from a higher exposure flexibility to recover incorrectly exposed shots.

Maybe it's just me but I would lose interest in photography if it got to the point that you could use whatever exposure and be able to recover it in post. Having the skill to get it right in camera is just as important as being able to process it well imo.

Also if beginners learn to fix everything in post, they will continue to rely on that rather than getting it right first in camera.


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elitejp
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Aug 01, 2017 05:15 |  #1445

And in what fictional world does this actually occur? If a photographer is willing to spend extra time editing in post he is sure more than willing to learn how to expose.
But even if he doesnt and he is still getting the pictures he likes then i could care less how he arrived at his end result. If it was perfect in camera thats great, if post was needed then so be it.
But seriously how many begginers are going to be buying a 6d2? And how many professionals would actually recommend a 6d2 to a newby?


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Scoobert
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Post edited over 6 years ago by Scoobert. (3 edits in all)
     
Aug 01, 2017 07:55 |  #1446

Dlee13 wrote in post #18416063 (external link)
Maybe it's just me but I would lose interest in photography if it got to the point that you could use whatever exposure and be able to recover it in post. Having the skill to get it right in camera is just as important as being able to process it well imo.

Also if beginners learn to fix everything in post, they will continue to rely on that rather than getting it right first in camera.

The canon marketing team has found their perfect class.

We will make a camera that is as cheap as possible using up all the several year old scrap parts we have laying around and sell it for 2K. Yes it will be behind our competitions 3 year old camera's. Dont worry we will play it off as if we are protecting the photographers from getting lazy and not developing his skills. While we laugh at our sheep all the way to the bank. Sony, Nikon and Fuji all coming out with improved camera's we will show them that our sheep are so well trained we can keep coming out with a 4 year old camera every four years and these lemmings will defend us.




  
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TeamSpeed
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Post edited over 6 years ago by TeamSpeed. (4 edits in all)
     
Aug 01, 2017 08:07 |  #1447

Dlee13 wrote in post #18416063 (external link)
Maybe it's just me but I would lose interest in photography if it got to the point that you could use whatever exposure and be able to recover it in post. Having the skill to get it right in camera is just as important as being able to process it well imo.

Also if beginners learn to fix everything in post, they will continue to rely on that rather than getting it right first in camera.

Again, sometimes you cannot get the image, the way you want to present it, right out of camera. Also, many of us aren't perfect, so we don't get that one money shot exposed just right due to a number of factors.

Having good DR is multi-faceted:

- During a paid gig, often you will be shooting something where you don't get a chance to reshoot, ie. a wedding or sporting event. You will miss shots, you want the ability to bring up that shot during post. It is not a beginners' thing, it is reality, and a pro knows how to manage those disasters during post, provided the files are compliant.

- Sometimes you cannot get the image correct in-camera, the DR of the scene is too broad and you will have to pull shadows and push highlights. This was also done in the film days, even Ansel Adams did this, and as you might know, he was not a beginner. ;) Shoot enough street scenes with a gorgeous mid-day sky, and you will have this situation arise.

- Wildlife shooters often shoot in a wide DR scenario, birds are often silhouetted against a sky, and feather detail is often the litmus test of such a shooter. Bringing up the shadows during post and still being able to hold details is critical. Unless you shoot with a better beamer and can get closer than normal without scaring them off, this is a reality. An amateur will just blow out the sky (like me), a pro wants to try to create art and a beautifully slightly cloudy blue sky is art enough.

- Sometimes real estate photography is very tricky, and unless you bring alot of lights and have alot of time to shoot all the areas of the property properly, you will have issues with DR, since you are inside but want to capture that backyard pool or wooded lot through the picture window. Hopefully you can schedule enough time for the shoot so you can set up lights, etc, but this is not always a reality, and your shooting positions are always tight enough as it is.

This is why DR is important to a large group of people. These are just 4 areas in which I have personal experience, others will have even more scenarios to list. For those that have the luxury to shoot a scene multiple times until they have it exactly correct in camera so they don't have to worry about shadow noise, this isn't a concern.

I feel that it is more the amateur shooter crowd that continually say that DR and post processing isn't that important. Shoot enough variety and be on the hook contractually for a shoot, and you quickly change your mind. You always try to get everything just right, but life happens, the moments are fleeting, and the lighting can be dynamic, and therefore you will meet situations that can only be remedied in post.


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John ­ Sheehy
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Aug 01, 2017 08:28 |  #1448

gjl711 wrote in post #18415923 (external link)
No, he is saying that at ISO100, the 6D sucks and by ISO320 it catches up.

PDR always overrates ISOs 160, 320, 640, etc, as Bill assumes 16383 as the highlight clipping point, which isn't true, especially for these ISOs, when they are digitally pulled. For each triplet you see in the series, the one with the highest peak really should be no higher than the one just below it. IOW, the peaks of those saw-teeth are false when digital pull is used. In fact, with some cameras, even at ISO 100, 200, etc, the RAW clipping point can be lower than 16383 (or 4095), and PDR, AFAIK, does not take this into account. So, I estimate that PDR values have the potential to be shifted up to half 1/2 stop relative to each other. Deriving significance from small differences in PDR is not useful.




  
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Levina ­ de ­ Ruijter
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Aug 01, 2017 08:38 |  #1449

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18416199 (external link)
- Wildlife shooters often shoot in a wide DR scenario, birds are often silhouetted against a sky, and feather detail is often the litmus test of such a shooter. Bringing up the shadows during post and still being able to hold details is critical. Unless you shoot with a better beamer and can get closer than normal without scaring them off, this is a reality. An amateur will just blow out the sky (like me), a pro wants to try to create art and a beautifully slightly cloudy blue sky is art enough.

Yep. I shoot birds. I'm not the best at it, but I do love it and I do know how to expose them properly and get it right in camera. However, it's the light or lack thereof in my part of the world, especially in the fall and winter that is a problem. My 1D4 is still a great camera and I love it, but there are better options today for those low light/high iso situations that I run into. So after years of buying used, I had planned to get me a brand new 6DII. I know my 300/4 does really well with both 1.4x and 2x extenders on a full frame and then maybe next year I was going to pair it up with the Tamron 150-600mm G2 as that lens does so well on full frame cameras. I was keeping my fingers crossed about the AF system in the 6DII, hoping Canon would have listened to its users. And they did. Unfortunately I took for granted that the sensor tech in the 6DII would be the latest. After all, the sensor is what made the original so wonderful. Looking at the scores and the images and the lack of wiggle room, I can't bring myself to buy this camera. Dynamic range is actually a bit worse than on the 6D. I still cannot believe Canon did this.

I have been looking at Nikon and Sony and am becoming more depressed. It will take significantly more money than I have to switch. I don't know what to do now.


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Post edited over 6 years ago by TeamSpeed. (3 edits in all)
     
Aug 01, 2017 08:42 as a reply to  @ Levina de Ruijter's post |  #1450

What ISO levels do you usually shoot at for birding? If the lighting is bad, but you also have to juggle shutter speeds to stop motion, I would think you are at higher ISOs correct? If that is the case, the 6D2 will work just fine for you, its higher ISO levels are very close to the 5D4 in that regard. I wouldn't dismiss the 6D2 just yet if you find yourself at ISO 640 or higher. It also seems that the 6D2 has a reduced impact AA filter, based on some of the details that I have seen in various files at higher ISO, meaning NR can be more aggressive while maintaining details, and thus more usable than even before.

To give you an idea, I rarely go back to my 5D4 raw files. I shoot both raw and JPG, but with the proper in-camera settings, and the in-camera NR, the JPG files are actually very good to work with. I haven't been able to do that with prior bodies, other than the 7D2.

This is ISO 8000 processed JPG on the 7D2, the 6D2 will better this result. :)

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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Post edited over 6 years ago by Left Handed Brisket.
     
Aug 01, 2017 08:44 |  #1451

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18416215 (external link)
What ISO levels do you usually shoot at for birding? If the lighting is bad, but you also have to juggle shutter speeds to stop motion, I would think you are at higher ISOs correct? If that is the case, the 6D2 will work just fine for you, its higher ISO levels are very close to the 5D4 in that regard. I wouldn't dismiss the 6D2 just yet if you find yourself at ISO 640 or higher.

exactly what I was wondering.

at ISO 800 the DR difference between 5DIV and 6DII is .6 stops

at 1600 it is .3 stops

3200 = .2

Same goes for most events I have ever shot.

http://www.photonstoph​otos.net/Charts/PDR.ht​m (external link)


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Aug 01, 2017 08:48 as a reply to  @ Left Handed Brisket's post |  #1452

I think the best answer for the 6D2 is "if you are a low ISO shooter, the 6D2 might give you pause. If you are a higher ISO shooter, then the 6D2 is a very good Rebel-esque version of the 5D4 with a flip screen".

That is my personal marketing slant for this model anyways. :D


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Aug 01, 2017 08:53 |  #1453

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18416223 (external link)
a very good Rebel-esque version

that describes me as a human.

6D2 may be the perfect camera for me!!!

;)

looking at those numbers brings me back into the "this camera might not be so bad" group, but since my 6DC is still getting the job done, i have no need to upgrade.


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John ­ Sheehy
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Aug 01, 2017 08:58 |  #1454

Dlee13 wrote in post #18416063 (external link)
Maybe it's just me but I would lose interest in photography if it got to the point that you could use whatever exposure and be able to recover it in post. Having the skill to get it right in camera is just as important as being able to process it well imo.

Also if beginners learn to fix everything in post, they will continue to rely on that rather than getting it right first in camera.

In the ultimate, ideal, photon-counting camera, there is no "right" or "wrong" in the RAW data. There are no shadows, no midtones, no highlights, except as you say so at display time. There is just more light, and less light at exposure time.

Learning skills just for the sake of discipline, when there is nothing to get wrong, can actually interfere with the goals of photography. The fact is, no matter how you envision a scene as being rendered, the relative ratios of light levels coming from different parts of the scene are always the same. You can imagine anything you want, and what you record will never be any less able to do that than if it was forced at exposure time.




  
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Aug 01, 2017 09:03 |  #1455

The Netherlands is probably not too different from Oregon weather-wise in winter, and I know I am perpetually at 1600 ISO or higher. Shooting below 800 ISO is almost unheard of for me.


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