7DM2 plus 5Dc

1) ISO 50 is a fake ISO (more diplomatically, it is ISO 100 with a 1 stop pull-back in the raw. I would think you would want to do the same, shoot the croppers at ISO 100 and bring back the image 1 stop in the raw.

2) I assume that means you framed identically and didn't crop anything from the 5D to match the FOV of the crop. Yes in that case, the 5D having like nothing for an AA filter on a less dense sensor should be sharper. However if you have to crop out of the 5Dc and resize after the fact, you lose that sharpness due to digital uprezzing.

3, 4) You will just have to believe the 7D2 is better than the 70D and 1100D, given no experience you have with it.

No idea what the rest of your answer/bullets means?

Extra note) At higher ISOs, the 5D shows its age, with even the first version 7D doing quite well against it. This means the 70D and 1100D will also do better. I think Bongcruz is making the right decision in waiting on the full frame choice, possibly holding out for a 6D or newer.

The 6D (when found for $800 or so on the used market) just does everything better, with high ISO noticeably better than the 7D2. A FF at $300 or so is a great deal however, so if budget dictates purchase, then the 5Dc is good to work with despite its antiquated menu, and bare bones functionality.

To show the advances of the crop world, here is a $550 mini rebel (better DR than the 7D2 though), with a very slight shadow increase at ISO 100. The 7D2 isn't this good, but it does pretty well. I should have performed the same test on the 7D2, darn it!

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18439895
1) ISO 50 is a fake ISO (more diplomatically, it is ISO 100 with a 1 stop ETTR), the camera is just shooting ISO 100 with a stop over exposed and pulling back the image. I would think you would want to do the same, shoot the croppers at ISO 100 +1EC and bring back the image 1 stop in the raw.

2) I assume that means you framed identically and didn't crop anything from the 5D to match the FOV of the crop. Yes in that case, the 5D having like nothing for an AA filter on a less dense sensor should be sharper. However if you have to crop out of the 5Dc and resize after the fact, you lose that sharpness due to digital uprezzing.

3, 4) You will just have to believe the 7D2 is better than the 70D and 1100D, given no experience you have with it.

No idea what the rest of your answer/bullets means?

Extra note) At higher ISOs, the 5D shows its age, with even the first version 7D doing quite well against it. This means the 70D and 1100D will also do better. I think Bongcruz is making the right decision in waiting on the full frame choice, possibly holding out for a 6D or newer.

The 6D (when found for $800 or so on the used market) just does everything better, with high ISO noticeably better than the 7D2. A FF at $300 or so is a great deal however, so if budget dictates purchase, then the 5Dc is good to work with despite its antiquated menu, and bare bones functionality.

To show the advances of the crop world, here is a $550 mini rebel (better DR than the 7D2 though), with a very slight shadow increase at ISO 100. The 7D2 isn't this good, but it does pretty well. I should have performed the same test on the 7D2, darn it!

to

Fake or not using my experience i get better results lifting shadows if i expose to the right, using the 5D at ISO50 than a 70D at IS0100.

I have reasons to believe the 7dmk2 isn't much better. The camera which is for certain much better on that regard than a 7dmk2 or a 70D, .... is a 80D. So if you are looking for a APS-C camera good for lifting shadows, get a 80D.

Try shooting the 70D at ISO 100 with EC+1, then bring the raw file down 1 stop, then compare. Only then are you comparing apples to apples.... You also lose a stop of highlight space when you do this however (on both formats), it moves down to the shadows this way. This should reduce the differences you are seeing. Will it equalize them? Probably not.

http://community.usa.c​anon.com …or-Bad/td-p/173326/page/2

Bongcruz wrote in post #18437640
So I've never shot full frame and noticed these 5D classics been cheap lately and wouldn't mind snagging a full frame. But with new APSC sensor,would it still be worth it from shooting with my 7DM2? Still keeping the 7d but I mean, a full frame is a full frame right? Thoughts?

The only lenses in your signature that might be worth trying with a larger sensor is the 50mm, and to a lesser extent the 70-200mm zoom.

With the zoom you will gain more subject isolation @ f/2.8, wiser field of view at the 70mm end, but you will lose detail, cropabilty = "reach".

It might be a fun experiment.

Shaun Liddy wrote in post #18437972
I just pointed up for a new 5d3 to have in my bag along with my 7d2. It's like I just bought a bunch of new lenses...

DOF with the 5d3 is noticeably different at the same equivalent focal distance.

I have not done any same shot ISO noise related testing yet, thinking about doing that tonight. I am figuring the 5d3 will win here.

The 7d2 though kills on speed for action both in frame per second and AF seems faster and more reliable.

The reach is also nice.

I can see how both are usefully depending on subject matter.

7D2 and 5D3 are a great pair. They compliment each other and function very similarly.

5Dc? Not so much IMHO.

ie: I am not at all sure how discussion of a 5D3, two generations newer, is pertinent to the conversation.

Similarly, I am not sure how comparing a 5Dc to a 70D is relevant.

I think somebody made the assumption that the 70D is close to the 7D2 and since they have both the 5Dc and 70D, it was pertinent. The 70D to 7D2 is a pretty significant upgrade, the 70D is aligned closer to the 7D than the 7D2.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18440780
Try shooting the 70D at ISO 100 with EC+1, then bring the raw file down 1 stop, then compare. Only then are you comparing apples to apples.... You also lose a stop of highlight space when you do this however (on both formats), it moves down to the shadows this way. This should reduce the differences you are seeing. Will it equalize them? Probably not.

http://community.usa.c​anon.com …or-Bad/td-p/173326/page/2

Exposing to the right in both cameras is a real world test. Apples and oranges are the differences i see when i watch the results. The 5D is much better at lifting the shadows at ISO50 than a 70D at ISO100. This fact is relevant because the 7dmk2 has a sensor very similiar to a 70D. It's the same generation. Only with the release of the 80D Canon made a major leap regarding lifting shadows. TS says it shoots landscapes so i say get a 5Dc instead of 7Dmk2. Because:

- It's better at lifting shadows when using ISO50;
- Having ISO50 is great for doing long exposures. It's much easier to get a slow shutter speed.

Using a 1 stop ND gives you the slow speeds too, you don't need the faux ISO 50.

If you are shooting the 5Dc at ISO 50 and the 70D at ISO 100, both with exposure centered, you are not doing the comparisons correctly. 5D with ISO 50 = ISO 100 pushed back 1 stop. 70D with ISO 100 = no ETTR. I am confused on why this seems like a fair comparison? Now if you are taking the 70D ISO 100 and bringing it back 1 stop in post, then that is a fair comparison.

The 7D2 doesn't have all the low ISO noise of the 7D/60D/70D. It doesn't have to have the new on-chip ADC to be better than the previous generation sensors. Again you state you have no experience with this. I, and others, do.

I can do the 5D4 and 7D2, and as we know the 5D4 is much better than the 5D, and if the 7D2 isn't much different than the 70D, then the differences should be astronomical, yes?

Yes, 7D2 is more than a year newer than 7D, it has a whole new generation of DIGIC processing X2. (dual Digic 6 vs. a single Digic 5)

....However, DPR felt the performance was similar if not identical, BUT they also felt that both are better than 5DIII!!!!

When I used to shoot my 7D2 side by side with 5D3, I felt they were very much on equal footing in many regards. It was not until I got a 5d4 that the "IQ gap" was back between this APS-C and FF.

re: 1100D, (this is the "T3" in some parts of the world) and frankly that circa 2008 12MP sensor is archaic by today's standards. If the comparison is 12MP 5D vs. 12MP 1100D then I believe it completely!

If the 70D's 2014 20MP sensor is being lumped in with a 2008 (450D originally) 12MP sensor, then there is something wrong here.

Oh thanks for the dpr review:
https://www.dpreview.c​om …s/canon-eos-7d-mark-ii/12

Yep, 70D vs 7Dmk2 latitude looks to me pretty much the same.

On the weekend, if i have some time i'll post a direct comparison shot between 5D @ ISO50 and and 70D @ ISO100, both ETTR, real world like, with shadows pushed to the max on LIghtroom.

Azathoth wrote in post #18441659
Oh thanks for the dpr review:
https://www.dpreview.c​om …s/canon-eos-7d-mark-ii/12

Yep, 70D vs 7Dmk2 latitude looks to me pretty much the same.

On the weekend, if i have some time i'll post a direct comparison shot between 5D @ ISO50 and and 70D @ ISO100, both ETTR, real world like, with shadows pushed to the max on LIghtroom.

werent you on the APS-C bandwagon? You must have grabbed a 5Dc at some point

measured DR, I dont think the 5Dc can match those APS-C cameras, especially if pushed hard..... HOWEVER, images generally look better if not pushed hard. Also, the 5Dc does horrible under bulb mode. Of course if you're ok with those limitations, you generally get better quality images than an APS-C sensor. That large aperture FF look.... not easily matched with a smaller sensor.

That FF pop, may be harder to see with an image to image comparison, but view a full album and it's apparent.

Azathoth wrote in post #18441659
On the weekend, if i have some time i'll post a direct comparison shot between 5D @ ISO50 and and 70D @ ISO100, both ETTR, real world like, with shadows pushed to the max on LIghtroom.

If you do the comparison, since the 5Dc ISO 50 is ISO 100 pulled back, then you have to pull the 70D ISO 100 down a stop to make them equal before doing the comparison or pushing up shadows...

Image 1:
Here is the 7D2 and 5D4, side by side, the 5D4 at ISO 50, the 7D2 at ISO 100, then brought back down 1 stop, to make it also ISO 50. They were framed identically by changing the focal length.

Image 2:
They were then both brought up 2 stops and then 100% crops of the beams in the dark area. The 5D4, since it was framed identically, has the added benefit of being sized down, while the 100% crop of the 7D2 had nothing done.

There is the slight color difference, and a very slight (< 1/3 stop) exposure difference, but this could be the in-camera ISO 50/100 +1EC causing the difference.

So if the 7D2 isn't any better than the 70D, and the 5D4 should be much better than the 5Dc, I would expect to see a much larger discrepancy between the two, with the 5D4 having 2 advantages over the 7D2, its on-chip ADC and it being resized down to match the 100% 7D2 crop.

Doing the same exacting comparison (as best I could) had I the 5Dc, the 7D2 would actually be better after the shadow pull and equalizing the sizes. The 5Dc would have another disadvantage, because it would have to be sized up to the 7D2 and that won't do it any favors. Or you resize the 7D2, and again, this just helps the 7D2.

I do these types of comparisons quite a bit, because I develop automated actions to clean up images in bulk, and know the noise handling of the 5Dc, 5D2, 5D3, 5D4, 7D, 7D2, 1D3, and 1D4 very intimately. I am curious to see how the 5Dc and 70D fare in Ricardo's tests.

Now for the really dark area, and this time, instead of editing the raw to bring up shadows, I use Photoshop's shadows/highlight tool on each, because sometimes this is faster and provides almost the same results. Here they are side by side, again the 5D4 had to be shrunken, helping it further.

In all areas of the images, I see very little difference in noise handling between the two.

I can comfortably state that the 7D2 will do quite well against the 5Dc for DR and shadow noise. I stand by my assertion that one would be better off saving up a bit more money and just going right to the 6D over the 5Dc, for many reasons.

Dropbox links to raw. I used DPP, so it saves out the raw exposure and picture style changes for me, for LR, you are going to have to to keep a 1 stop difference in any pushes or pulls manually between the two, since the camera already did that for ISO 50 burned into the raw file.

https://www.dropbox.co​m …wphpu5f/216A047​2.CR2?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.co​m …e7ujlow/FX8A246​5.CR2?dl=0

Included is the DR graph between various cameras. Another one to consider in about the same price range would be the 5D2, but I would still put the 6d over that even.

The below list shows order of DR, highest to lowest of several common Canon bodies, at ISO 100. If they were within 1 to 2 tenths, they are lumped into the same line. 2.5 stops separate the lowest from the highest. Theoretically, the ones with the higher DR values are better for landscapes and architectural/real estate shots due to the times a high DR scene might be captured, and the shadows pushed up afterwards to make for a more pleasing image for the task at hand.

Therefore, instead of the 5D, 2 other FF offerings in roughly the same price range would be better for landscapes: 6D and 5D2. You also get other nicer features with them over the 5D.

So $300 (5D) vs $800 (6D), netting you better AF, more resolution, better low light AF, 1 extra stop DR at low ISO, WiFi, much better high ISO, and other newer features.

Only a 1/3 stop DR separate #6 through #8. That is a good area from which to select a 2nd camera, with the exception of the 1DX being a bit north of the price of all the others. The top 3 slots are all the cameras with the new on-chip ADC.

(ISO 100 - DR, highest to lowest, 2.5 stop difference between #1 and #12)
1. 5DIV
2. 1DXII
3. 80D, SL2
4. 5DS
5. 1DIV
6. 6D
7. 6DII, 5DII, 1DX
8. 7DII, 5DIII, 1DIII, 50D
9. 70D
10. 7D
11. 1DsII
12. 5D

(ISO 6400 - DR, highest to lowest, 2 stop difference between #1 and #12, however noise characteristics vary greatly in this list, and after post processing, this order would be a bit different)
1. 5DS
2. 1DXII
3. 5DIV
4. 6DII, 6D
5. 5DIII
6. 5DII
7. 1DIV
8. 80D, 7DII, 1DIII
9. SL2
10. 70D
11. 50D
12. 7D

i don't really notice much of a huge difference between my 70D, and 5Dc...but i don't spend a ton of time lifting shadows...

OP, you really can't go wrong with a 5Dc at the low prices they are being sold at...but if you can afford more, i see 6dc(are we making the MK I a C?) being sold for like $800...i feel like that'd be a pretty huge jump for maybe $500 more...but just getting the 5Dc to use as a cheap, good FF camera is still a good idea...personally i still wouldn't use it in low-light though

I think he agrees with you.

Bongcruz wrote in post #18437987
Thanks everyone, I think I'll just hold off on the 5Dc then since it doesn't seem like much of an addition to what I already have.

Here is a ludicrous push, the 7D2 doesn't like 3 stop pushes, it starts to show banding a bit, but nothing as bad as the old bodies, including the 5Dc, the 6D will fare better.

It is 9pm here, and quite dark, this was a 1sec exposure, and then I brought it up 3 stops, cleaned up a bit of the noise and resized to 2000 on the long end. You aren't going to do this and get large prints, but neither are you with the 5Dc, or the 7D (70D) or T3.

Animation and individual frames...