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FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
Thread started 30 Sep 2017 (Saturday) 14:26
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Switching from DSLR to mirrorless

 
davesrose
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Post edited 6 months ago by davesrose.
     
Jan 11, 2018 20:29 |  #106

I recently watched Kong Skull Island. The actress that plays the photo journalist actually brought her hand me down Canon AE-1 to shoot behind the scenes on film. But her character is using a Leica M3 with MR meter and 35mm goggle. The film takes place a few years before the AE-1 came to market (and became the best selling SLR of all time). But I think it's interesting to see how expensive Leica was then: the body, the lens, then an extra "goggle" to have proper VF alignment, and a meter: way more then a "consumer" level SLR. Leica is like German brands as far as banking on being a premium brand. With some comparisons, it's competitive with FF digital systems with being small or being a true range finder. You may prefer it with optics or interface. But when it comes to performance, you can't dismiss Olympus and Panasonic with M4/3 systems, Sony and Fuji with APS systems (or I'd even add some crop DSLRs), or Sony with FF mirrorless when it comes to "portable".


Canon 5D mk III , 7D mk II
EF 135mm 2.0L, EF 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, EF 24-70 2.8L II, EF 50mm 1.4, EF 100mm 2.8L Macro, EF 16-35mm 4L IS, Sigma 150-600mm C, 580EX, 600EX-RT, MeFoto Globetrotter tripod, grips, Black Rapid RS-7, CAMS plate and strap system, Lowepro Flipside 500 AW, and a few other things...
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Tom ­ Reichner
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Post edited 6 months ago by Tom Reichner.
     
Jan 11, 2018 20:57 |  #107

Two Hot Shoes wrote in post #18539015 (external link)
Find what suits you and shoot with it, no argument with that.
. . . yes also the feeling of shooting with it I get that 100% and it is rewarding.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18539025 (external link)
. . . it is so intuitive for me to work with. For the type of . . . work I do Leica M is a perfect fit. For my personal work the same. Like we both have been saying, finding the equipment that works best for the way you see and work is what it should be all about.

You both make it sound so easy!

I am glad that you have found the gear that fits perfectly with your shooting style. . But for some of us, that gear does not yet exist.

People say things like, "find what works for you and go with it." . But that kind of advice seems shallow, because it assumes that there is gear that will work great for what one shoots. . For some of us, such gear does not exist. No one has made it yet.

So all we have before us are a bunch of compromises, and we have to expend all of this thought and energy doing research and experimenting with different systems, trying to figure out what compromise has the shortcomings that we can put up with. . Hence, gear decisions are messy and complicated, because there is no choice available that fits with the way we shoot. . Mankind just hasn't invented that stuff yet. . Either that, or they have invented it, but they have determined that there isn't enough of a market for it, so that they will not profit greatly if they made it .... so they don't make it.

And this is why these DSLR vs. Mirrorless discussions go on and on and on. . Because so many of us want all of the advantages that DSLRs give us, AND all of the advantages that mirrorless gives us, as well as a few things that aren't in either system yet.

So while a lucky few, like Allen, have gear that has a whole bunch of pros and no cons, the majority of us have no such clear-cut choices before us. . And anything we pick will mean that we are settling for something that isn't really ideal and doesn't really fit our shooting style and doesn't really enable us to capture every single thing that we can possibly envision.

Can we take wonderful photos with today's gear? . Of course we can. . But for some of us, the ultimate goal is not just to take beautiful photos. . It is to be able to take beautiful photos every single time we want to, no matter what the conditions are like, no matter how far away the subject is, no matter how little light there is, and no matter how fast the subject is moving. . And nothing made today can provide spectacular, world-class results in every conceivable scenario. . And thus we are left with nothing but compromises to choose from.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
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airfrogusmc
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Post edited 6 months ago by airfrogusmc. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 11, 2018 21:25 |  #108

Tom the perfect camera will never be made. So we have to find what can best work for us. What I think someone needs to do is get a system that best works for them. Stay with it. Use it until it totally becomes part of you. When you pick it up you are not thinking. It becomes so second nature. It's like breathing, walking, or driving your car.

For me 40+ years of shooting all different formats (film) in both my professional work and my personal work and a lot of different digital cameras I found my way to where i need to be now at this point in time. That could change. I have always thought when I retire I would move out west and pick up an 8X10 Deardorff and go back to film and the zone system but who knows.

A great quote by Weston and I know I have posted this before but worth a repost in this context:
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

And another one of my favs:
"The camera doesn't make a bit of difference. All of them can record what you are seeing. But, you have to SEE." - Ernst Haas




  
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Choderboy
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Jan 12, 2018 03:23 |  #109

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18538296 (external link)
Charlie, I have always believed that for AF tracking of rapidly moving subjects, that are crossing in front of the photographer at all kinds of random angles, DSLRs have a better AF system than mirrorless cameras do. . But now the things that you have said make me wonder if that is still true.

So, I would like to know, in your opinion, if I am trying to track ducks or eagles or running deer, all of which are moving rapidly and at random angles, and all at very close range (to the point where it is almost impossible to keep them in the frame) ....... for these challenging scenarios, do you think that mirrorless is now definitely better than DSLRs, inasmuch as the focus tracking goes?

If so, I can see no reason not to go with mirrorless, if cost were not a factor and if the lens selection was on par with the big huge whites.

.


I have been wondering this myself. From what I have read the Sony A9 may have not just equalled Canon's best but maybe surpassed it.

A POTNer that will be able to answer your question accurately soon is GyRob. He has the Olympus OMD E-MII and also a 1DXII. Having more experience with the 1DXII, it will take a while for him to really test out the Oly.

Initial results: (Owl in flight)
https://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=18353498

Regarding AF performance:
https://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=18318457
"close to my 1dxmkII but not as accurate. Now this may well be me as it is all new to what I'm use to."

I suspect the A9 is better than the Olympus.


Dave
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Two ­ Hot ­ Shoes
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Jan 12, 2018 05:01 |  #110

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18539067 (external link)
You both make it sound so easy!

I am glad that you have found the gear that fits perfectly with your shooting style. . But for some of us, that gear does not yet exist.

People say things like, "find what works for you and go with it." . But that kind of advice seems shallow, because it assumes that there is gear that will work great for what one shoots. . For some of us, such gear does not exist. No one has made it yet.

So all we have before us are a bunch of compromises, and we have to expend all of this thought and energy doing research and experimenting with different systems, trying to figure out what compromise has the shortcomings that we can put up with. . Hence, gear decisions are messy and complicated, because there is no choice available that fits with the way we shoot. . Mankind just hasn't invented that stuff yet. . Either that, or they have invented it, but they have determined that there isn't enough of a market for it, so that they will not profit greatly if they made it .... so they don't make it.

And this is why these DSLR vs. Mirrorless discussions go on and on and on. . Because so many of us want all of the advantages that DSLRs give us, AND all of the advantages that mirrorless gives us, as well as a few things that aren't in either system yet.

So while a lucky few, like Allen, have gear that has a whole bunch of pros and no cons, the majority of us have no such clear-cut choices before us. . And anything we pick will mean that we are settling for something that isn't really ideal and doesn't really fit our shooting style and doesn't really enable us to capture every single thing that we can possibly envision.

Can we take wonderful photos with today's gear? . Of course we can. . But for some of us, the ultimate goal is not just to take beautiful photos. . It is to be able to take beautiful photos every single time we want to, no matter what the conditions are like, no matter how far away the subject is, no matter how little light there is, and no matter how fast the subject is moving. . And nothing made today can provide spectacular, world-class results in every conceivable scenario. . And thus we are left with nothing but compromises to choose from.

.


I don't see it as a shadow statement at all, quite the opposite and if you read through the rest of the same post you'd see that i said that. But if you are lucky enough to find a system that you get on well with then great.

Yes, there is no perfect camera and probably never will be but in the end of the day all a 'better' camera does is make it potentially easier for someone to shoot something with. Working with a camera is just having the right tool for the job. If I don't need to shoot video of use AF or shoot narrow then my choice would include camera suited for that, like a Leica. But I do so I don't have one. Really almost any modern camera is so good that we are spoilt, and like children we give out about things that don't really matter. Like 'my camera is better than users, just look at the 0.2 better dynamic range at ISO 400'... :rolleyes:


Anyway it is easy, you just point the round glass thing at what you want in the photo and look through the little square window while twiddling knobs on the box till you see it appear, then mash a button on the top right of the camera box till the screen blinks. What's so hard about that :love:


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Owain ­ Shaw
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Post edited 6 months ago by Owain Shaw.
     
Jan 12, 2018 05:33 |  #111

I'm at the stage where there are better cameras than mine (namely updated versions of the same body, and updated versions from competitors with and without mirrors) and also cameras that I would like to own for the work I like doing (Leica lust) but I do not need to change my current camera(s) because I'm not shooting professionally and my current camera doesn't inhibit me in any way - I still use it to take a lot of photographs that I'm happy with. There may be higher megapixel sensors available now but if I don't print large format then that's somewhat irrelevant. There's better AF out there but my subjects are often static or I can pre-focus a lot of the time for the shots I'm taking ... and if I miss a shot then I'm a bit gutted for a few seconds and then life goes on.

Conclusion: I'll keep shooting with what I have until it really is time to replace it (because it is broken), and then buy what I really want. It will probably take me several years to be able to reasonably afford this but fortunately, my camera is unlikely to terminally fail any time soon so it's all good. So, I'm pumped for my Leica M12 in 2025, basically. I might pre-order now.


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airfrogusmc
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Post edited 6 months ago by airfrogusmc. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 12, 2018 08:10 |  #112

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18539067 (external link)
Can we take wonderful photos with today's gear? . Of course we can. . But for some of us, the ultimate goal is not just to take beautiful photos. . It is to be able to take beautiful photos every single time we want to, no matter what the conditions are like, no matter how far away the subject is, no matter how little light there is, and no matter how fast the subject is moving. . And nothing made today can provide spectacular, world-class results in every conceivable scenario. . And thus we are left with nothing but compromises to choose from.

.

Tom, as you have hinted at, I don't think the ability to always make great photographs every time we pick up the tool is as much a failure in equipment as it is just being human. The greatest photographers that ever lived had good days and bad days. Some would go out for all day and not come back with anything. Adams said if he made 12 good negatives a year it was a good year.

There are days I go out and get nothing and other days are very successful. Creativity is something that is very human and as a result of that it suffers from all of our frailty. We all have good days and bad. It's just all part of being human and alive. I think to many people put it on limitations of the tool and not the limitation within us all . Finding the right tool is key to it all but it is still a creative person creating that makes the difference. How well that person understands and can work around the limitations you and i know so well that are in those tools will determine how effectively that we and those other photographers can communicate what he/she is seeing. But as Haas so clearly pointed out in the quote I previously posted we first have to see.

"Simplicity is a prime requisite. The equipment of Alfred Stieglitz and Edward Weston represent less in cost and variety than many an amateur "can barely get along with." Their magnificent photographs were made with intelligence and sympathy-not with merely the machines. Many fields of photography demand specific equipment of a higher order of complexity and precision; yet economy and simplicity are relative, and the more complex a man's work becomes, the more efficient his equipment and methods must be."-Ansel Adams




  
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Wilt
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Post edited 6 months ago by Wilt. (4 edits in all)
     
Jan 12, 2018 11:46 |  #113

Just as there is no such thing as 'the single best car that does everything for everyone', there is no such thing as 'the single best camera that does everything for everyone'.
EACH has its advantages in different circumstances, AND each has its DISADVANTAGES in different circumstances. If one has the budget, one can afford to keep a variety of cars and a variety of cameras, and choose the best one for a given circumstance. But, with limited budgets, we have to choose ONE...If we are forced to choose only one vehicle (or camera), and each of us has our individual PRIORITIES to which pros and which cons color our decision making about the one that works best for us.

One would not choose to drive only a Humvee in Manhattan and in the mountains for skiing...one drives a smaller, easier to park car in the city and keeps the big beast with big wheels for the snow. If the choice is only one vehicle, maybe it is a smaller 4WD truck that is not so challenging in Manhattan as a Humvee.


But only the blindly forgiving pretend that NO DISADVANTAGE (vs. some alternative) exist for everyone else in the group, even if it ideal for us as an individual.
Wisdom is recognition of all products and their shortcomings, so that we can choose the best for the circumstances (and for our individual needs)....dSLR or mirrorless.
Methinks some in the mirrorless group are unnecessarily defensive of their choice...I am not anti-mirrorless, I am simply identifying some characteristics that have been issues in the past (and which present products have perhaps recently addressed fully). The OP subject was switching TO mirrorless, so it is natural to have a discussion also of 'why not switch (yet)'


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mike_d
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Jan 12, 2018 15:49 |  #114

Wilt wrote in post #18539401 (external link)
Methinks some in the mirrorless group are unnecessarily defensive of their choice...

Converts to [Insert religion, technology, or sports team here] are often the most zealous.




  
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Post edited 6 months ago by Osa713.
     
Jan 13, 2018 00:25 |  #115

Wilt wrote in post #18539401 (external link)
Methinks some in the mirrorless group are unnecessarily defensive of their choice...I am not anti-mirrorless, I am simply identifying some characteristics that have been issues in the past (and which present products have perhaps recently addressed fully). The OP subject was switching TO mirrorless, so it is natural to have a discussion also of 'why not switch (yet)'

While I agree with most of your post, I don't think the mirrorless crowd is overtly defensive. In large part this is a canon board, at one point in time a majority of mirrorless users have shot canon before trying something else(including myself). Also some Fuji shooters in the Fuji subforum shoot both systems and understand what both systems bring to the table and know how to get the best results via technique. Anything I post about my experience is just to offer balance as a majority of "canon" shooters on this board have not tried mirrorless and base any shortcomings on what they read from others that also have not tried it first hand or did not know how to get the best results.  :p

When I switched I had to keep in mind my new setup is not a DSLR so I can't shoot it as such and I have been happy so far.


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Hogloff
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Jan 13, 2018 08:18 |  #116

Osa713 wrote in post #18539875 (external link)
While I agree with most of your post, I don't think the mirrorless crowd is overtly defensive. In large part this is a canon board, at one point in time a majority of mirrorless users have shot canon before trying something else(including myself). Also some Fuji shooters in the Fuji subforum shoot both systems and understand what both systems bring to the table and know how to get the best results via technique. Anything I post about my experience is just to offer balance as a majority of "canon" shooters on this board have not tried mirrorless and base any shortcomings on what they read from others that also have not tried it first hand or did not know how to get the best results.  :p

When I switched I had to keep in mind my new setup is not a DSLR so I can't shoot it as such and I have been happy so far.

Osa713 wrote in post #18539875 (external link)
While I agree with most of your post, I don't think the mirrorless crowd is overtly defensive. In large part this is a canon board, at one point in time a majority of mirrorless users have shot canon before trying something else(including myself). Also some Fuji shooters in the Fuji subforum shoot both systems and understand what both systems bring to the table and know how to get the best results via technique. Anything I post about my experience is just to offer balance as a majority of "canon" shooters on this board have not tried mirrorless and base any shortcomings on what they read from others that also have not tried it first hand or did not know how to get the best results.  :p

When I switched I had to keep in mind my new setup is not a DSLR so I can't shoot it as such and I have been happy so far.

I totally agree. I see many people post about the short comings of mirrorless without ever trying mirrorless. When ever I read someone complain about Sony's menus...I know right off the bat this person is an Internet parrot, just echoing whatever they read. I know first hand that you can customize the buttons and dials such that you really don't need to go into the menu system...only reason I use the menu is to format a card.

Same goes with the ergonomics concerns...how can one have an opinion without actually using a camera for a week or more...yet I hear from these same people how bad the ergonomics are.

That's the trouble with the Internet...you can read about it and it makes you an expert.




  
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mdvaden
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Jan 26, 2018 10:29 |  #117

Osa713 wrote in post #18539875 (external link)
While I agree with most of your post, I don't think the mirrorless crowd is overtly defensive. In large part this is a canon board, at one point in time a majority of mirrorless users have shot canon before trying something else(including myself). Also some Fuji shooters in the Fuji subforum shoot both systems and understand what both systems bring to the table and know how to get the best results via technique. Anything I post about my experience is just to offer balance as a majority of "canon" shooters on this board have not tried mirrorless and base any shortcomings on what they read from others that also have not tried it first hand or did not know how to get the best results.  :p

When I switched I had to keep in mind my new setup is not a DSLR so I can't shoot it as such and I have been happy so far.


It would be merely a tiny fraction, the people who started entirely with something like the Canon M3 or M5 where they began both mirrorless and Canon shooters.


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Charlie
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Jan 26, 2018 10:47 |  #118

mdvaden wrote in post #18549367 (external link)
It would be merely a tiny fraction, the people who started entirely with something like the Canon M3 or M5 where they began both mirrorless and Canon shooters.

I think he was talking about being a former Canon DSLR shooter.

This forum was a Canon specific forum some years back, and it catered mostly to Canon DSLR shooters. A large portion of "Mirrorless" converts here were probably former Canon DSLR shooters. I've probably owned close to a dozen Canon DSLR bodies


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Jan 28, 2018 12:58 |  #119

to me that Fuji system is looking soo good right now. Was just at the zoo for 3hrs with my family. had my backpack with my 150-600, 70-200, 35 and 100 and my shoulders are killing me now.
I love my little fuji XT1 but switching over to it and moving to the XT2 seems like such a nice option


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Jan 28, 2018 16:42 |  #120

I just finally got rid of my Canon DSLR gear after 20 years. It has served me fantastically but technology is moving forwards and it was all starting to feel a bit archaic and cumbersome.

The Panasonic G9 is a brilliant little machine. The only real compromise is the sensor but even there it's only really DOF control that is the issue and there are ways around that. It handles noise at 6400 ISO remarkably well - indistinguishable from the 7D2.

The weight/size saving in the 70-200 2.8 equivalent alone is obscene!


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Switching from DSLR to mirrorless
FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
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