Photography Forum, What's the Point?

F2Bthere wrote in post #18683760
If someone writes something, they cannot say "agree with me or say nothing." Posting a photograph is also a statement.

I am very much with F2Bthere. You open your mouth in a public space, then you need to be prepared that somebody answers. There is plenty of possibility to publish your pictures - why choose a forum that has a reply button? And yes: Don't be a jerk.

F2Bthere wrote in post #18788389
I am a huge supporter of the golden rule which, when properly translated from the ancient language, reads something like this: don't be a jerk.

And I think those of us who have been around should take some responsibility for calling people on being jerks. And if we are not part of the conflict, I think it's usually easy to see .

But I also am coming to think that posting images and not having honest, considerate feedback is selfish.

Why? Because the only person who gets something from it is the person being praised, which is all they "allow." This deprives them of honest feedback.

It also deprives everyone else of the learning opportunity derived from a conversation about images, how they work or don't, how they affect us, what draws attention, what distracts and how to get better.

If the goal is to get a bunch of likes, post on Facebook.

I think we have an opportunity to be a learning community.

And honest feedback is not just negative. It is a reflection of the viewers experience (and biases and training and...).

The hard part it that the community needs to take on the responsibility to be constructive and to call people when they are being jerks.

I tend to agree but...
there are a huge amount of photos posted on POTN !
Why not be a learning community based as actually on photos posted in critique corner ?
Will everyone be lacking of learning opportunities ?
Absolutely not.

PS : I started as a flawless photo critique. Because of my poor experience, I was a pain although not conscious to be. By considering my words' contradictors, I learnt to listen to different beginners as well as to skilled persons, to make up my mind, to open my mind, to gain in experience,...The long road to go begins by first steps. Beginners need to emitt (flawless) comments on posted photos in order to learn by trials and errors - both for photography and critique experience. And need to be forgiven for. So far, (flawless) comments are best forgiven when posted in one devoted forum section. Regards,

Pictoraider wrote in post #18788482
I tend to agree but...
there are a huge amount of photos posted on POTN !
Why not be a learning community based as actually on photos posted in critique corner ?
Will everyone be lacking of learning opportunities ?
Absolutely not.

PS : I started as a flawless photo critique. Because of my poor experience, I was a pain although not conscious to be. By considering my words' contradictors, I learnt to listen to different beginners as well as to skilled persons, to make up my mind, to open my mind, to gain in experience,...The long road to go begins by first steps. Beginners need to emitt (flawless) comments on posted photos in order to learn by trials and errors - both for photography and critique experience. And need to be forgiven for. So far, (flawless) comments are best forgiven when posted in one devoted forum section. Regards,

What do you mean when you say "flawless"?

Pictoraider wrote in post #18788482
I started as a flawless photo critique.

F2Bthere wrote in post #18789874
What do you mean when you say "flawless"?

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When I read that statement by Pictoraider, I, too, wondered what "flawless" meant in that context.

I was also confused by the use of the word "critique", because it doesn't seem to fit the sentence or the idea he/she was trying to express. . The word "critic" seems like it would be a better fit. . I wonder if Pictoraider meant to say "critic" but wrote "critique" by mistake.

It would be nice to get some clarification about this sentence so that we could know what it was that Pictoraider was trying to say.


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F2Bthere wrote in post #18789874
What do you mean when you say "flawless"?

Sorry for my english.

By posting flawless critics, I meant all the contrary : posting critics with defects,
it is to say submit, because of inexperience, uncertain, hesitant, clumsy, inaccurate criticisms, whose veracity has been taken in default ...

Pictoraider wrote in post #18790922
Sorry for my english.

By posting flawless critics, I meant all the contrary : posting critics with defects,
it is to say submit, because of inexperience, uncertain, hesitant, clumsy, inaccurate criticisms, whose veracity has been taken in default ...

Could you explain what you mean in French, or your native language if that isn't French?

s1a1om wrote in post #18563039
The premise of the discussion was whether constructive criticism should be given in the "Photo Sharing & Visual Enjoyment" part of this forum. A couple years ago I was the recipient of a comment similar to the one given on that thread:
And I was taken aback by that kind of aggressive response. In my mind the entire point of a forum on photography is to get feedback from other people in order to get better at photography. As such, I was astounded that somebody would post something and just want to hear, "beautiful shot". If I wanted that kind of response, I'd show the photos to my friends/family.

People are liars. They say they want feedback, or criticism, but they're just fishing for a pat on the back. When they don't get it, they rage.

This is the main reason I can't get advice from people. They've been sensitized; they know that if they give feedback, odds are they'll be railed because they did so. Even if they were asked to give feedback! So, no one will offer advice.

People don't want to be better, they want to be the best (without the pain of getting there.) We hurt their precious pride, their sensitive egos, when we don't give them the strokes they're convinced they deserve. They should be happy with suggestions so they can learn and improve, even if it wasn't solicited. But they aren't, because they're fools.

^ Misanthropy.

The first time a person gets honest feedback on their work is hard because they are often surprised.

"Visual literacy" is as hard as learning to read well. But unless a person has studied art, they haven't had much chance to develop the skill of "seeing" well and this makes for a lot of surprise.

One challenge is that people offering advice may also not be as skilled at seeing well, either, so the advice isn't always useful.

Another challenge is that people have learned "rules," like the rule of thirds, and they apply the rule to every image. Try that with great paintings or great photographs and you will see that they don't slavishly follow the advice. But some critics do because it is an easy thing to learn and apply.

Finally, there are people who feel under appreciated and try to feel better about themselves by striking out at others (the "jerks"). These folks muddy the waters a lot.

So the trick is to keep the feedback productive. If you consider how you would feel on the receiving end of the way you express yourself, you are far less likely to be a jerk. And if people react defensively to your comment, see it as an opportunity to think about how you are saying things and examine if you could have said it better.

That doesn't mean the criticism might not be valid, just that if you are delivering critiques you should also be open to having your words critiqued, too.

It is easy to blame the other person.

F2Bthere wrote in post #18792346
So the trick is to keep the feedback productive. If you consider how you would feel on the receiving end of the way you express yourself, you are far less likely to be a jerk. And if people react defensively to your comment, see it as an opportunity to think about how you are saying things and examine if you could have said it better.

That doesn't mean the criticism might not be valid, just that if you are delivering critiques you should also be open to having your words critiqued, too.

I think the majority of people will get upset, no matter how it's presented.

icor1031 wrote in post #18792349
I think the majority of people will get upset, no matter how it's presented.

The majority at POTN don't seem to. If they're privately upset, they respond graciously anyway. My humble and sincere efforts to help have met with only one or two vile, uncalled-for, explosive retorts.

icor1031 wrote in post #18792349
I think the majority of people will get upset, no matter how it's presented.

That hasn't been my experience so far. But it will happen.

The only person I have noticed getting unhappy with me was someone who saw a criticism that was not in my response (neither what I wrote nor what I thought). And, in that case, it was that persons misreading a statement about gear .

I think a lot of it depends on how the information is presented.

For example, if I wanted to express what you wrote above, I would not have put it that:

"People are liars. They say they want feedback, or criticism, but they're just fishing for a pat on the back. When they don't get it, they rage."

I feel that is a bit offensive and is also a bit inaccurate .

When people ask for feedback, I don't think most of them are "lying." To lie is to say one thing when you believe another to be true. I agree that many are probably "hoping" everyone will tell them how awesome their image is.

I have also not seen everyone or even most "raging" when they get feedback. I have observed a wide range of responses from "thank you" to follow up questions to explanations to excuses to defensiveness and, yes, sometimes rage. But rage isn't common in my experience and is frequently somewhat caused by rudeness in presentation.

F2Bthere wrote in post #18792416
and is also a bit inaccurate .

My mistake is that I've generalized my experience of humanity, and assumed the same about the people here.

F2Bthere wrote in post #18792292
Could you explain what you mean in French, or your native language if that isn't French?

When starting photography, we proceed by trials and errors. So far when starting photo critique, we are led to post notices that scratch the ears of those who really know.
If not posting on forum mistaken/inaccurate criticisms we truly believe in, we would miss opportunities to reveal our lack of experience and/or our misunterstanding of photo basics ; and to learn from ours errors so to be a better photographer by updating and refining our photo knowledge.

A critique corner best suits for posting mistaken/inaccurate criticisms that are to be forgiven.
By the way, as lack of experience and misunderstanding concern most often the same photo basics, other POTN beginners can take avantage of the critique section to learn too - without having to reveal.

Pictoraider wrote in post #18792892
When starting photography, we proceed by trials and errors. So far when starting photo critique, we are led to post notices that scratch the ears of those who really know.
If not posting on forum mistaken/inaccurate criticisms we truly believe in, we would miss opportunities to reveal our lack of experience and/or our misunterstanding of photo basics ; and to learn from ours errors so to be a better photographer by updating and refining our photo knowledge.

A critique corner best suits for posting mistaken/inaccurate criticisms that are to be forgiven.
By the way, as lack of experience and misunderstanding concern most often the same photo basics, other POTN beginners can take avantage of the critique section to learn too - without having to reveal.

Thank you for the helpful clarification.

I agree there are many benefits to critique discussions for everyone involved, including those just reading.