Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 21 Feb 2018 (Wednesday) 20:17
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

How to make out of gamut colors show up more smoothly?

 
vasher
Senior Member
Avatar
288 posts
Gallery: 168 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 1255
Joined Jun 2011
Location: Seattle
     
Feb 21, 2018 20:17 |  #1

I want to print this photo out quite large, but testing with smaller samples is coming out a little discouraging.

On screen w/soft proofing, it seems pretty accurate to how it looked (blown out center sun merging smoothly to really bright but discernible yellow ring), but test prints (ProDPI) show a rather abrupt transition on both Fuji Lustre (ok-ish looking) and Fuji Pearl (terrible, bright dark bright dark rings). I'm not sure if a matte-er paper would help here? Or is there a wider gamut paper suggestion? Epson 'Hot Press', 'Velvet', and Hahnemuhle 'Torchon' are readily available. Thanks for any advice!

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4593/38976175041_dfb4c9537e_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/22oc​5VX  (external link) Land of the Setting Sun (external link) by vashnic (external link), on Flickr

Flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
MCAsan
Goldmember
Avatar
3,721 posts
Likes: 36
Joined Jun 2010
Location: Atlanta
     
Feb 21, 2018 22:51 |  #2

Assuming you are using a profile for your printer and a specific paper....how are you telling your printer how to handle out of gamut colors? In Lr Print module you can tell the color management section to use Perceptual or Relative methods to handle out of gamut colors.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
vasher
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
Avatar
288 posts
Gallery: 168 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 1255
Joined Jun 2011
Location: Seattle
     
Feb 21, 2018 23:04 as a reply to  @ MCAsan's post |  #3

I am sending the file out to a print lab (ProDPI) and downloaded their ICC profiles to softproof. They ask for sRGB files, so that is what I export as. Should I be embedding special profiles? Or is the perceptual/relative something they would handle on their end?


Flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Nogo
I could have been worse....
6,691 posts
Gallery: 15 photos
Likes: 462
Joined Dec 2013
Location: All Along the Natchez Trace (Clinton, MS)
     
Feb 21, 2018 23:10 |  #4

I know nothing about ProDPI but their site has what looks like a fairly good article on the subject you are asking about. I would assume you have gone though it, but just in case you have not here is the link to it. https://prodpi.zendesk​.com …proofing-and-ICC-Profiles (external link)


Philip
Does the TF actually know about the soda cans and PVC pipe from 30 years ago?

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
agedbriar
Goldmember
Avatar
2,540 posts
Likes: 286
Joined Jan 2007
Location: Slovenia
     
Feb 22, 2018 03:30 |  #5

If you can't resolve it at printing stage, I'd try desaturating the problem colors just a tad and retest.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
J ­ Michael
Senior Member
947 posts
Gallery: 7 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 47
Joined Feb 2010
Location: Atlanta
     
Feb 22, 2018 05:53 |  #6

Which inkset are they using? Perhaps they are limited by a narrower gamut than might be possible using a different printer.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
MCAsan
Goldmember
Avatar
3,721 posts
Likes: 36
Joined Jun 2010
Location: Atlanta
     
Feb 22, 2018 07:46 |  #7

If the company is asking for sRGB files, then the burden is on the photographer to handle the conversion of wide gamut ProPhoto or Adobe RGB. to the much smaller gamut of sRGB. In Lightroom Print module you can route the output to a jpeg file instead of a physical printer. Jpeg files are sRGB. When you do that you can try one with Perceptual conversion and another with Relative gamut conversion.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tzalman
Fatal attraction.
Avatar
13,411 posts
Likes: 171
Joined Apr 2005
Location: Gesher Haziv, Israel
     
Feb 22, 2018 08:17 |  #8

vasher wrote in post #18569481 (external link)
I am sending the file out to a print lab (ProDPI) and downloaded their ICC profiles to softproof. They ask for sRGB files, so that is what I export as. Should I be embedding special profiles? Or is the perceptual/relative something they would handle on their end?

"Should I be embedding special profiles?"
They specifically state embedded ICC working space.
"They ask for sRGB files,"
No, they say either sRGB or Adobe RGB. https://prodpi.zendesk​.com …0322071-File-Requirements (external link) And yes, the larger gamut of Adobe RGB would be better, although in this particular case the difference wouldn't be large because the yellow-orange-red part of the color spectrum is the area where Adobe RGB is only slightly bigger than sRGB (whereas the green-cyan-blue side is very much wider).
" Or is the perceptual/relative something they would handle on their end?"
Yes, that is something they set (and don't change) in their software, but the fact that they say to soft-proof for Rel Col would make me assume that that is what they use.

J Michael wrote in post #18569597 (external link)
Which inkset are they using? Perhaps they are limited by a narrower gamut than might be possible using a different printer.

Although they may be using a high end inkjet for their Fine Art printing, the Fuji printing will not be ink-on-paper but rather be done in a Fuji Frontier machine which scans laser light across silver halide photo paper and then wet processes it.

MCAsan wrote in post #18569645 (external link)
In Lightroom Print module you can route the output to a jpeg file instead of a physical printer. Jpeg files are sRGB. When you do that you can try one with Perceptual conversion and another with Relative gamut conversion.

Conversions to working spaces (sRGB, Adobe RGB) are always Rel Col, no matter what you select, because they are matrix based and lack device-specific LUTs.


Elie / אלי

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
kirkt
Cream of the Crop
5,528 posts
Likes: 467
Joined Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA USA
     
Feb 22, 2018 08:47 |  #9

It is difficult to assess the problem without seeing the original image in its largest working color space, so that conversions into sRGB can be evaluated based on the amount of gamut compression needed to create a file for print.

As others have suggested, there are a few ways to deal with gamut issues, if that is the problem. In your case, the abrupt transition of the sun area to paper white could occur because of the printer profile's response in the extreme highlights, or because of some imbalance in the channels as the image goes to clipping - for example, the blue channel in this image. Adding dither (noise) to the area where the smooth gradation to white might help break up the abrupt change at the boundary of the sun's halo.

Take a look at the way the channels (the grayscale representation of them) change during conversion from the source working space to the target working space and see if you can manage to identify and remedy the specific artifact that is occurring in the printed output, potentially as a result of the gamut compression. Inspecting the grayscale channels is a huge help in this regard.

kirk


Kirk
---
images: http://kirkt.smugmug.c​om (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
40,183 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 2023
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
Post edited 4 months ago by Wilt. (2 edits in all)
     
Feb 22, 2018 11:36 |  #10

If there are issues in the gradient of colors across an area, the possible problems are

  • use of too much JPG data compression (quality) when creating the JPG file, causing broader bands of color
  • color space conversions (e.g. sRGB to aRGB or vice versa due to gaps in the mapped colors) (or 16bit to 8bit color space conversions),

You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support https://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
agedbriar
Goldmember
Avatar
2,540 posts
Likes: 286
Joined Jan 2007
Location: Slovenia
Post edited 4 months ago by agedbriar.
     
Feb 22, 2018 14:43 |  #11

According to the OP, on screen the image looks fine.

Hence, I guess, it's just the case of the printer gamut being just that much smaller than the monitor's to hit that image.

(Happened to me a few times with magentas, while printing at home.)




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
kirkt
Cream of the Crop
5,528 posts
Likes: 467
Joined Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA USA
     
Feb 22, 2018 17:56 |  #12

agedbriar wrote in post #18569924 (external link)
According to the OP, on screen the image looks fine.

Hence, I guess, it's just the case of the printer gamut being just that much smaller than the monitor's to hit that image.

(Happened to me a few times with magentas, while printing at home.)

But to solve the problem, you need to see the original data and the final output space. Looking fine on the OPs display does not mean much.

Kirk


Kirk
---
images: http://kirkt.smugmug.c​om (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
vasher
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
Avatar
288 posts
Gallery: 168 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 1255
Joined Jun 2011
Location: Seattle
     
Feb 22, 2018 19:18 |  #13

Ok, back from work. :-) Thank you very much everyone for your input!

After some mulling: My next steps are to fiddle with local adjustment settings around the sun to see if I can't smooth it out, use AdobeRGB instead of sRGB, and also try adding noise. I wish I had a printer to see instant results, but I'm also happy that a lab is taking care of all printer maintenance and ink costs.

Here are some screenshots LR working space Prophoto RGB:


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.


Prints:


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.


Flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
vasher
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
Avatar
288 posts
Gallery: 168 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 1255
Joined Jun 2011
Location: Seattle
     
Feb 22, 2018 19:20 |  #14

And soft proofs. The red histogram change is interesting from the Prophoto.


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.



HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.


Flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ejenner
Goldmember
Avatar
3,623 posts
Gallery: 66 photos
Likes: 479
Joined Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO
Post edited 4 months ago by ejenner.
     
Feb 22, 2018 21:51 |  #15

I seem to always get this problem, even printing at home where I have full control. Would like to see if there is a resolution.

I go in and make sure the part where you see the ring inside the sun is really smooth with local editing (cloning/smoothing and or painting over it).

IME the proofs in software don't always fully capture what the print will look like - at least mine don't always. They work well for certain parts of proofing and are worth doing to see if colors are going to shift etc.., but don't always capture these sorts of issues.


Edward Jenner
5DIII, 7DII, M6, GX1 II,M11-22, Sig15mm FE,16-35 F4,TS-E 17,Sig 18-250 OS Macro,M18-150,24-105,T45 1.8VC,70-200 f4 IS,70-200 2.8 vII,Sig 85 1.4,100L,135L,400DOII.
http://www.flickr.com/​photos/48305795@N03/ (external link)
https://www.facebook.c​om/edward.jenner.372/p​hotos (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

1,400 views & 1 like for this thread
How to make out of gamut colors show up more smoothly?
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is brotherbear86
885 guests, 371 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 6430, that happened on Dec 03, 2017

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.