Canon and Sony body owners

AlanU wrote in post #18673455
I'm afraid Hogloff the "Master of Sony" will teach me something today............ I'm waitin'....

Just curious if your talking about registering faces. If so I'd love to see an event shooter do such a tedious thing when you shooter hundreds of different faces in an evening.

If your speaking of selecting a face I see how it works but focus recompose with AF-S works just as well with Canon. AF-S with Sony is not remotely as good in locking from what I've experienced. Not an issue as Sony is just a fun camera at the moment and not anything for serious events shooting.

Focus and recompose works if the subject doesn’t move, the photographer doesn’t move or you are using a large enough aperture to have the depth of field to cover this movement.

With the Sony once it locks on you just compose the way you want and not worry about focus...it will nail the eyes virtually 100% of the time. No need to play the “get the little rectangle over the subject” game.

Osa713 wrote in post #18673498
Alan is making a name for himself in every subforum

I have very valid questions regarding Sony eye focus. Fuji’s implementation on af is still a work in progress.

I hear very little on wedding photogs using face register for eye focus in fast paced events.

Osa, are you stepping up to Sony or Canon ? Why else would you be contributing to this topic? High iso will spoil you. You will lose your Fuji sooc pleasant render. Sony is not forgiving like Fuji.

I love the comments that someone read somewhere that someone had an issue with Brand x, so brand x must be bad. It's the silliest thing ever. If you are happy with your system, great. But I guarantee you if you do a search for problems with any top line camera from any brand, you will find those that have had issues.

Like showing low light images, come on - with a silly a6300 (my current run and gun camera) I did lighting shots with AF and a metabones'ed (is at a word?) canon L on the front. Camera had no issues achieving focus.

Then others brag about weather sealing. I have shot sports in the worst conditions - rain coming down sideways - and my weather sealing - a 15 cent zip lock baggie or garbage bag. If you have shot enough, you know how to get the shot. You don't need a 5,000 - 7,000 dollar camera to get the shots. A very pedestrian 7D or 80D can do it. I even shot for years a 40D as a second camera, and had plenty published from it.

It's whats between your ears that makes the difference, not whats in front of your eyeball.

My current kit is the aforementioned a6300, a7rIII, a7rII, 5d mk Iv, and a canon 1Dx - and a bunch of older point and shoots.. The Dx sits on my self most of the time, along with my older 6d and 7d. I have about $25,000 in vested in Canon glass - so why I metabones most everything now. I am anxiously awaiting Canon's real attempt at mirrorless. I love the evf, and the lighter weight. I want to use them natively. These are all good systems, and all work. If a photographer says they can't get shots with any brand, the problem is the photographer, not that camera.

"I love the comments that someone read somewhere that someone had an issue with Brand x, so brand x must be bad"

While I agree with your eventual conclusion, I take issue with the approach, specifically the bold. This thread is almost entirely first hand results and impressions and seems to draw the same conclusion you draw ... that there is only the finest of lines between brands and "pro" models. It appears that you have at least 7 modern cameras, and while some sit on the shelf, there are no doubt reasons why on any partivular day you would choose one over the other.

If you posted a reason for choosing one over the other, that would be the same kind of anecdotal evidence you that you and both hope to avoid. The difference comes with knowing the source and validating the info with other known sources.

The Sony/Godox issues have been discussed frequently here and elsewhere, the post on the previous page is just another example. Elinchrom just announced Skyport TTL support for Sony last week. Whether that matters to you is really pretty irrelevant, it is just more information for an individual to take into account. Frankly, the conclusion that "brand x is bad" as a blanket statement has been almost absent from this thread.

AlanU wrote in post #18673622
I have very valid questions regarding Sony eye focus. Fuji’s implementation on af is still a work in progress.

I hear very little on wedding photogs using face register for eye focus in fast paced events.

Osa, are you stepping up to Sony or Canon ? Why else would you be contributing to this topic? High iso will spoil you. You will lose your Fuji sooc pleasant render. Sony is not forgiving like Fuji.

I have played with Sony’s eye before and it’s really, really good. I couldn’t imagine anyone using it for events unless the subject is standing alone which is rare at weddings. If you are about to take a shot with a group the camera might pick a face to focus on that you don’t want.

In terms of adding Sony to my gear bag I am ok, my system exceeds my needs for now so I am focusing on composition and learning light rather than shooting 3-4 brands at a time.

So for weddings Eye-AF is very useful most of the time, but you need to be mentally prepared to toggle between eye-AF and regular AF as needed because if your subject turns their head, eye-AF will not work and you’ll need to use traditional AF. It’s not as bad as it sounds since eye-AF is assigned to a separate button. You basically toggle between the eye AF button and back button AF/shutter button depending on the circumstances of the shot. I have eye af and back button af mapped to the af-on and AEL buttons on the a7rIII….the buttons are right next to each other so its easy to toggle.

With regards to multiple faces in the frame….eye-AF will prioritize the focus point selection…if there is not a face at the focus point, it will grab the eye of the nearest face. As such, its pretty rare that the eye-AF will try to grab the wrong face. It usually happens when shooting wide angle shots, but if shooting medium/long focal lengths where you’re compressing more of the background, there are fewer faces for the system to choose from. And again, if eye-AF is targeting the wrong face for whatever reason, simply use the regular AF button.

Maybe a sllly question but, is Sony tracking only initiated on a half press or BBF? If you are using BBF (assuming something similar exists) does it stop tracking when you let go? Or does it take a few seconds to stop?

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18673686
Maybe a sllly question but, is Sony tracking only initiated on a half press or BBF? If you are using BBF (assuming something similar exists) does it stop tracking when you let go? Or does it take a few seconds to stop?

it works just the same as a Canon DSLR. Starts and stops immediately whenever you half press the shutter or assigned BBF button.

mystik610 wrote in post #18673660
So for weddings Eye-AF is very useful most of the time, but you need to be mentally prepared to toggle between eye-AF and regular AF as needed because if your subject turns their head, eye-AF will not work and you’ll need to use traditional AF. It’s not as bad as it sounds since eye-AF is assigned to a separate button. You basically toggle between the eye AF button and back button AF/shutter button depending on the circumstances of the shot. I have eye af and back button af mapped to the af-on and AEL buttons on the a7rIII….the buttons are right next to each other so its easy to toggle.

With regards to multiple faces in the frame….eye-AF will prioritize the focus point selection…if there is not a face at the focus point, it will grab the eye of the nearest face. As such, its pretty rare that the eye-AF will try to grab the wrong face. It usually happens when shooting wide angle shots, but if shooting medium/long focal lengths where you’re compressing more of the background, there are fewer faces for the system to choose from. And again, if eye-AF is targeting the wrong face for whatever reason, simply use the regular AF button.

When you say regular AF do you mean navigating joystick because your stuck in AF-C mode ??

I'm must analyzing my shooting style. With Canon I can focus/recompose in milliseconds with incredible accuracy but navigating a joystick I definitely cannot. I've always used AF-S for over a decade and I'm just testing AF-C using Sony. If I shoot center focus all of the time this would be no problem using AF-C.

Sony seems to have incredible accuracy in AF-C but focus recompose technique is quite poor with my A7iii. Again this is with adapted glass and an E mount Sigma. Not sure if native glass is any better because eye focus is ridiculously fast with adapted glass and even my pig E mount Sigma 24 ART.

I've actually been doing exactly what you've described using either the custom eye focus button or common shutter button. With 1 subject the eye focus is great!! with group situations I find that a missed eye target can still happen from time to time and to recover the shot in AF-C mode you have to be extremely quick on the draw with the joystick.

I'll admit I'm having a blast learning Sony world and the Sigma 24ART is producing amazing image quality.

Osa713 wrote in post #18673651
I have played with Sony’s eye before and it’s really, really good. I couldn’t imagine anyone using it for events unless the subject is standing alone which is rare at weddings. If you are about to take a shot with a group the camera might pick a face to focus on that you don’t want.

In terms of adding Sony to my gear bag I am ok, my system exceeds my needs for now so I am focusing on composition and learning light rather than shooting 3-4 brands at a time.

Osa, using different brands is like selecting different paint brushes I definitely couldn't shoot Fuji as a primary. Prime example of gear differences is to compare a high res Sony A7Riii image vs a 24MP fuji crop sensor for landscape. They have completely different render.

Hogloff, do you want to chime in with your real life explanation of the render differences with Fuji and Sony???? Sony simply does not smudge detail even if you tried in landscape photography.

Osa, when I had my mancave studios in a dedicated suite in my home I had fun shooting family sessions and head shots. Learning light is fun with beauty dishes, strip boxes, shoot through umbrella's, octadomes and all that stuff. Now I use my studio lights to light up 250+ group shots for receptions and other events. Dropped my studio for family/kids recreation room. I was into studio settings but that was the time Vegabond lithium mini's and manual strobes, elinchrom with skyports were more common. Now the inexpensive built in lithium Godox sudio gear is appealing to the wallet and functionality with TTL. Right now is good times for cheap with great tech!!

AlanU wrote in post #18673933
When you say regular AF do you mean navigating joystick because your stuck in AF-C mode ??

I'm must analyzing my shooting style. With Canon I can focus/recompose in milliseconds with incredible accuracy but navigating a joystick I definitely cannot. I've always used AF-S for over a decade and I'm just testing AF-C using Sony. If I shoot center focus all of the time this would be no problem using AF-C.

Sony seems to have incredible accuracy in AF-C but focus recompose technique is quite poor with my A7iii. Again this is with adapted glass and an E mount Sigma. Not sure if native glass is any better because eye focus is ridiculously fast with adapted glass and even my pig E mount Sigma 24 ART.

I've actually been doing exactly what you've described using either the custom eye focus button or common shutter button. With 1 subject the eye focus is great!! with group situations I find that a missed eye target can still happen from time to time and to recover the shot in AF-C mode you have to be extremely quick on the draw with the joystick.

I'll admit I'm having a blast learning Sony world and the Sigma 24ART is producing amazing image quality.

I'm a bit confused with your shooting style. I always assumed focus recompose to be with center point correct?

On top of that, it was typically used with AF Servo in Canon terms, is this not the case? I'de use focus recompose a lot during my 5Dii days, and BBAF, servo was the conventional setting rather than one shot AF. Of course I didnt like to use that style of shooting, but it did work fairly well for event type shooting.

sony workflow is drastically different for me.

Video shooting I have to do wide area face detect on (most of the time)

confusion often happens if I leave these settings on and switch to photography.

I actually turn face detect OFF when shooting stills. I use either Eye AF or simple point selection. Focus recompose is last resort, and rarely used. Sometimes I'll use it for landscapes, but those are slow enough that I can tap the AF point. Cant use face detect with many folks in the screen as it can get tripped up, on top of that, I dont like the accuracy.... so I use eye detect mapped to a button. By default, it wont engage, but with the button, it'll grab someone, and if wrong person, I'll use the point selection. Point selection + eye detect will almost always grab the right person. Anytime the eye detect doesnt work is usually because the face as a subject, becomes too small in the frame, and quite often with wide angle lenses. Wide angle lenses, I'll simply do wide area if I intend to grab the foreground. Because I'm primarily a rear LCD shooter, touch af point selection works well for me as well.

With all these rules, focus recompose surely seems like a more simpler/easier approach

AlanU wrote in post #18673933
When you say regular AF do you mean navigating joystick because your stuck in AF-C mode ??

I'm must analyzing my shooting style. With Canon I can focus/recompose in milliseconds with incredible accuracy but navigating a joystick I definitely cannot. I've always used AF-S for over a decade and I'm just testing AF-C using Sony. If I shoot center focus all of the time this would be no problem using AF-C.

Sony seems to have incredible accuracy in AF-C but focus recompose technique is quite poor with my A7iii. Again this is with adapted glass and an E mount Sigma. Not sure if native glass is any better because eye focus is ridiculously fast with adapted glass and even my pig E mount Sigma 24 ART.

I've actually been doing exactly what you've described using either the custom eye focus button or common shutter button. With 1 subject the eye focus is great!! with group situations I find that a missed eye target can still happen from time to time and to recover the shot in AF-C mode you have to be extremely quick on the draw with the joystick.

I'll admit I'm having a blast learning Sony world and the Sigma 24ART is producing amazing image quality.

I’ve never been a focus and recompose guy since I shoot fast apertures a lot and am kinda picky about microfocus accuracy. But yes the downside to having so many Af points is that it complicates the AF selection process. There was something nice about the simplicity of the 5D2 AF system where you basically hit the joystick one time to make your AF selection. The problem with the 5D2 of course was that the AF points were so clustered on the center of the frame.

At any rate, Sony is definitely an AF-C centric system. AF-S is slow because of the CDAF being used at the last step of the AF process. That was more of a crutch for the older cameras where the PDAF system was not so great, but the PDAF is so great in the newer cameras that I never leave AF-C.

The downside is that AF-C means focus and recompose really won’t work. You can try using lock-on AF. It will basically ‘lock-on’ to your subject at the initial AF acquisition, and will follow them wherever they move across the frame as you recompose. It works well for scenes where there isn’t a whole lot going on, but it tends get tripped up if you have things jumping in front of your subject.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=R7QazhHImsk

Got to say it loud and clear

I think Sony is a excellent camera

I have been a canon shooter since 1974. I have tried other brands and seriously considered a jump to Nikon when the D5 came out. My Opinion is there is no better camera on the market than the Nikon D5. It does everything well. I waited for the announcement on Canons new sensor. Glad I did.

With the announcement the Canon1Dx2- FINALLY, something that is in the ballpark with the Sony Sensor and an AF system thats phenominal. Much like the D5. Canon shooters were in the game with sensor technology

When I get on a Nikon D5 and have some help from Nikon shooters with camera functions. The D5 was a no miss. All I had to do was ask my buddy, I do this with my Canons, how you do this with the D5 or D750 ? We set the camera up and it works the way I would expect it to work

I Tried same approach with the Sony systems. They are just totally foreign to what I have used so much in the past. There is more to do and figure out on them than there is on the canons. I would think that If I Invested more time with the systems i would feel more comfortable on them and probably a lot less apprehensive about using them.

From what I can tell, And I have a lot of experience shooting weddings and events ( 550 + weddings ), Canon and Nikon are superior systems for AF performance even with the Eye focus that Sony Offers. And thats likely because I know how to use the AF on a Canon like the back of my hand. Its just second nature to me Where as the Sony always felt foreign and I never know what the hell its going to do.

SO- IM NOT THE GUY that will be able to make a fair assessment of the Sony Camera system

BUT

What I have concluded is the following

1- The adapters work OK and you will get mixed results with Canons L lens on a Sony Camera in GREAT Light

2- The Adapters DONT work well in low ambient light where a subject is moving with your Canon L lens- poor results reported by many experience pros

3- If you are using all Native Sony Glass, with a Sony Body, performance issues from those that are invested in the Sony systems are minimal

SO- Its back to where I left it when I ordered the 5D4

1- I do not want two camera systems in my bag for an event like a wedding
2- I do not want to go through the process of investing time and efforts to learn another system and work with 2 systems at an event
3- I Am too invested in canon glass and OCF flash set ups to reinvest in another set of camera lens
4- Size is negligible. Put an adapters and a L lens on and you are so close in just not worth arguing about
5- I would need a grip for a Sony camera

Lastly

There is virtually zero differences in sensor performance ( despite what any loyal fan boy from any brand will say ) from a Sony sensor, Nikon D5, and a Canon 1Dx2 and 5D4 sensor- We are talking 1/2 to 1 stop differences in performance and you have to zoom into these files at 100% to really see it.

Nikon D5 uses Sony sensor technology and Sonys top bodies are all going to get you to 25000 ISO and possible up to 51000 ISO use
1Dx2 and 5D4 uses Canon sensor technology and its going to get you to 25000 ISO when captured properly

Due to the above-----I stayed canon and went with a 5D4 to compliment the 1Dx2- Nothing I cant capture and I did not have to invest in additional glass.

I reported some of the issues on this thread because I felt like everyone was contributing objectively based on their experiences with the gear- This was never intended to be a Fan Boy Thread so please keep it this way. There are a lot of shooters that are thinking about mirrorless and Sony. I want them to have useful information so thats why the thread remains open to discussion

Thanks
Mike

umphotography wrote in post #18674966
Got to say it loud and clear

I think Sony is a excellent camera

I have been a canon shooter since 1974. I have tried other brands and seriously considered a jump to Nikon when the D5 came out. My Opinion is there is no better camera on the market than the Nikon D5. It does everything well. I waited for the announcement on Canons new sensor. Glad I did.

With the announcement the Canon1Dx2- FINALLY, something that is in the ballpark with the Sony Sensor and an AF system thats phenominal. Much like the D5. Canon shooters were in the game with sensor technology

When I get on a Nikon D5 and have some help from Nikon shooters with camera functions. The D5 was a no miss. All I had to do was ask my buddy, I do this with my Canons, how you do this with the D5 or D750 ? We set the camera up and it works the way I would expect it to work

I Tried same approach with the Sony systems. They are just totally foreign to what I have used so much in the past. There is more to do and figure out on them than there is on the canons. I would think that If I Invested more time with the systems i would feel more comfortable on them and probably a lot less apprehensive about using them.

From what I can tell, And I have a lot of experience shooting weddings and events ( 550 + weddings ), Canon and Nikon are superior systems for AF performance even with the Eye focus that Sony Offers. And thats likely because I know how to use the AF on a Canon like the back of my hand. Its just second nature to me Where as the Sony always felt foreign and I never know what the hell its going to do.

SO- IM NOT THE GUY that will be able to make a fair assessment of the Sony Camera system

BUT

What I have concluded is the following

1- The adapters work OK and you will get mixed results with Canons L lens on a Sony Camera in GREAT Light

2- The Adapters DONT work well in low ambient light where a subject is moving with your Canon L lens- poor results reported by many experience pros

3- If you are using all Native Sony Glass, with a Sony Body, performance issues from those that are invested in the Sony systems are minimal

SO- Its back to where I left it when I ordered the 5D4

1- I do not want two camera systems in my bag for an event like a wedding
2- I do not want to go through the process of investing time and efforts to learn another system and work with 2 systems at an event
3- I Am too invested in canon glass and OCF flash set ups to reinvest in another set of camera lens
4- Size is negligible. Put an adapters and and L lens on and you are so close in just not worth arguing about
5- I would need a grip for a Sony camera

Lastly

There is virtually zero differences in sensor performance ( despite what any loyal fan boy from any brand will say ) from a Sony sensor, Nikon D5, and a Canon 1Dx2 and 5D4 sensor- We are talking 1/2 to 1 stop differences in performance and you have to zoom into these files at 100% to really see it.

Nikon D5 uses Sony sensor technology and Sonys top bodies are all going to get you to 25000 ISO and possible up to 51000 ISO use
1Dx2 and 5D4 uses Canon sensor technology and its going to get you to 25000 ISO when captured properly

Due to the above-----I stayed canon and went with a 5D4 to compliment the 1Dx2- Nothing I cant capture and I did not have to invest in additional glass.

I reported some of the issues on this thread because I felt like everyone was contributing objectively based on their experiences with the gear- This was never intended to be a Fan Boy Thread so please keep it this way. There are a lot of shooters that are thinking about mirrorless and Sony. I want them to have useful information so thats why the thread remains open to discussion

Thanks
Mike

Thank you for the detailed insight.

mystik610 wrote in post #18674287
I’ve never been a focus and recompose guy since I shoot fast apertures a lot and am kinda picky about microfocus accuracy. But yes the downside to having so many Af points is that it complicates the AF selection process. There was something nice about the simplicity of the 5D2 AF system where you basically hit the joystick one time to make your AF selection. The problem with the 5D2 of course was that the AF points were so clustered on the center of the frame.

At any rate, Sony is definitely an AF-C centric system. AF-S is slow because of the CDAF being used at the last step of the AF process. That was more of a crutch for the older cameras where the PDAF system was not so great, but the PDAF is so great in the newer cameras that I never leave AF-C.

The downside is that AF-C means focus and recompose really won’t work. You can try using lock-on AF. It will basically ‘lock-on’ to your subject at the initial AF acquisition, and will follow them wherever they move across the frame as you recompose. It works well for scenes where there isn’t a whole lot going on, but it tends get tripped up if you have things jumping in front of your subject.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=R7QazhHImsk

I was back button focuser since 2014 on D610 and D750. I don't need back button focus on A7III because it focuses in whole frame well, but I see that focus and recompose is often faster than moving focus point with joystick. Lock-on mode could be nice replacement in theory, but in A7III it does not work well for me, it often leaves subject for no reason. So I was trying various settings to have flexibility of recomposing while having default without BBF.

At first, I tried AF/MF ctrl toggle on a AF-ON button, but I was forgetting or accidentally pressing it too much. That did not work for me.

Next, I tried Recall Custom Hold 1 with two checked settings: 1st Focus Mode set to Single Shot AF, 2nd AF-ON set to On. This has worked as reverse of BBF pretty well, but AF-S works worse than AF-C so I was not using it for too long.

Currently I have a button set to AF/MF Control Hold (not on AF-ON which I use for Play to have "double-click" as Play and Zoom) and use AF-C mode. This allows me to do focus and recompose when needed. This can also work with Focus Magnifier assigned to different button without need to switch away from AF-C.

See my full button settings at the bottom of http://jtra.cz …750-to-sony-a7iii/en.html