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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 30 Mar 2018 (Friday) 14:46
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Trouble with Models

 
icor1031
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Post edited 8 months ago by icor1031. (2 edits in all)
     
Mar 30, 2018 14:46 |  #1

About 1 in 20 models that show interest (fill a form to model with me) will follow through all the way and actually show up.
About 1 in 3 that schedule will arrive. Around half of those who bail, never offer the courtesy of a letting me know. Heck, I send a reminder and they don't even respond to that!
Those who cancel and let me know that something came up, don't reschedule. They stop responding to messages.

I've spoken to four other photographers in my city. Three of them have similar trouble with models. Like me, one of them is so frustrated that he's almost completely given up on doing fun portraits. And this guy is a pro; he went to photography school (though that means little), is employed as a photographer, and does magazine shoots.
The one photographer who doesn't have much trouble is in school. So, he sees these girls almost every day. If they bail on him, they have to see him face to face.

My question: is there anything reasonable I can do? I want to start doing creative shoots, but I'm frustrated; people keep wasting my time (helping them prepare for the shoot) and ruin my schedule for no gain.


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Mar 30, 2018 16:05 |  #2

World has gotten very suspicious lately.

In what kind of places and situations they fill that form? If they do it in parties, street, clubs or bars, then it is no wonder that they don't show up or simply have forgotten it.

They might have doubts or fears if it is only a portrait shoot you want to do. Maybe you should ask (even require) that their parent(s) to attend the session so there is no doubt of your intentions.


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icor1031
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Post edited 8 months ago by icor1031. (2 edits in all)
     
Mar 30, 2018 16:17 |  #3

Pekka wrote in post #18597209 (external link)
World has gotten very suspicious lately.

In what kind of places and situations they fill that form? If they do it in parties, street, clubs or bars, then it is no wonder that they don't show up or simply have forgotten it.

They might have doubts or fears if it is only a portrait shoot you want to do. Maybe you should ask (even require) that their parent(s) to attend the session so there is no doubt of your intentions.

On the form, I tell them: if they're minors, I require they bring a parent. If they're adults, I recommend bringing a friend.

I posted my form in Facebook sales groups, over 300 people filled it. It included a link to my website (they saw my port, which is pretty good), and other info. A few of the people I contact I find on instagram, usually after they 'follow' me.


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Mar 30, 2018 16:25 |  #4

A few years ago I posted ads for models. Several responded and we arranged shoots at their homes. A surprising number had "just left" when I arrived, and never came back in the 5 or 10 minutes that I waited for them. I guess they were just nervous or shy. It couldn't have been a security issue since there were people at home, the folks who told me the girl had just stepped out.

The other half were home, and I had some successful shoots (all fully decent). On one occasion, I visited a couple weeks later to give the girl the prints I had promised her. She glared at me very suspiciously, very different from the shooting session when she was relaxed and happy. I'm pretty sure that someone had told her the photographer was just preying on her, taking advantage of her. Ridiculous. She was photographed wearing a jacket and covered from the soles of her feet to the neck. She seemed to relax a bit after we chatted, accepted the prints, and we were done.

So definitely, girls can be shy, and they can be suspicious, especially after friends warn them.


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icor1031
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Post edited 8 months ago by icor1031. (4 edits in all)
     
Mar 30, 2018 16:31 |  #5

Archibald wrote in post #18597222 (external link)
On one occasion, I visited a couple weeks later to give the girl the prints I had promised her. She glared at me very suspiciously, very different from the shooting session when she was relaxed and happy. I'm pretty sure that someone had told her the photographer was just preying on her, taking advantage of her. Ridiculous.

That reminds me of this girl, who gave me a pleasant review on Google from our last shoot. Then, the day before a second shoot (months later) - she abruptly cancels. https://i.imgur.com/EU​yDuEX.png (external link) (No identifying info .. also, oops - I named two of the places wrong *lol*). I wonder if it was the same thing.


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Post edited 8 months ago by Alveric. (3 edits in all)
     
Mar 30, 2018 23:46 |  #6

I've had some of the same experiences, on the few times I placed ads looking for models. My MO was to clearly state on the ad that minors were out of the question, they had to be at least 22 years old and they had to include a picture of themselves in their reply. I then set up an interview with them at a public locations –a rather busy coffee shop. I explained what shots I was after (business images, mostly headshots). If they were still interested we scheduled the shoot. I was open and frank about the shoot taking place in my apartment, except for the one that was gonna take place in a public location (Centre of the Arts).

I had a couple of girls saying they'd go for it and then not even bothering to cancel. One of them, her E-mail addy suddenly went poof. I wasn't in a fit of rage, but was very irritated that they didn't even had the courtesy to E-mail/text about cancelling. (On the other hand, at least they didn't make up excuses: I can't stand liars.)

Yes, many are now suspicious of everything. Sad. However, one thing struck me as odd: there was this one girl –from out of town, actually– who was constantly E-mailing me about doing the shoot no matter what: even when I pointed out that it would not work as I couldn't travel out of town (didn't own a car at the time), she said she had a vehicle and was willing to come to The City to do it. She even sent me several photos of her in sexy poses/outfits. She was asking what kind of photos we'd be doing and what not. I was like, 'what the trout...' Eventually, as it happened I had to rent a vehicle to do a shoot (paid work), and E-mailed her back stating that I would be able to travel to her town and we could arrange something; I also told her the images would be for stock and they'd be about cell phone selfies (nothing glamourous or fashion or sexy). At that point she stopped replying and I never heard from her again.

It got me thinking. I don't want to assert the following as fact, but I still strongly suspect that some of them are actually quite interested in nothing but posing for provocative, naughty photographs. When they're told that the images will be fully-dressed headshots or business-like attire and situations, they bail out. That, if true, is even sadder; especially when many females go endlessly about complaining about being treated as sexual objects. Go figure.


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Post edited 8 months ago by icor1031. (4 edits in all)
     
Mar 31, 2018 01:31 |  #7

Alveric wrote in post #18597424 (external link)
I've had some of the same experiences, on the few times I placed ads looking for models. My MO was to clearly state on the ad that minors were out of the question, they had to be at least 22 years old and they had to include a picture of themselves in their reply. I then set up an interview with them at a public locations –a rather busy coffee shop. I explained what shots I was after (business images, mostly headshots). If they were still interested we scheduled the shoot. I was open and frank about the shoot taking place in my apartment, except for the one that was gonna take place in a public location (Centre of the Arts).

I had a couple of girls saying they'd go for it and then not even bothering to cancel. One of them, her E-mail addy suddenly went poof. I wasn't in a fit of rage, but was very irritated that they didn't even had the courtesy to E-mail/text about cancelling. (On the other hand, at least they didn't make up excuses: I can't stand liars.)

Yes, many are now suspicious of everything. Sad. However, one thing struck me as odd: there was this one girl –from out of town, actually– who was constantly E-mailing me about doing the shoot no matter what: even when I pointed out that it would not work as I couldn't travel out of town (didn't own a car at the time), she said she had a vehicle and was willing to come to The City to do it. She even sent me several photos of her in sexy poses/outfits. She was asking what kind of photos we'd be doing and what not. I was like, 'what the trout...' Eventually, as it happened I had to rent a vehicle to do a shoot (paid work), and E-mailed her back stating that I would be able to travel to her town and we could arrange something; I also told her the images would be for stock and they'd be about cell phone selfies (nothing glamourous or fashion or sexy). At that point she stopped replying and I never heard from her again.

Sounds (generally) familiar... quite irritating. Do you still bother?

Alveric wrote in post #18597424 (external link)
It got me thinking. I don't want to assert the following as fact, but I still strongly suspect that some of them are actually quite interested in nothing but posing for provocative, naughty photographs. When they're told that the images will be fully-dressed headshots or business-like attire and situations, they bail out. That, if true, is even sadder; especially when many females go endlessly about complaining about being treated as sexual objects. Go figure.

On my application form, I asked people which shoot types they want. Western, headshots, glamour, etc. And it explicitly asked (with glamour) if they were okay with being topless.

I've had things go both ways...
People that want less revealing, after checking topless on my form (which is okay, if they're honest - story below.)
And people that want more provocative images - fully nude, or porny style, which I never do.

----

I had one girl who irritated me. She checked yes, and then 2-3 times before she arrived, I said very clearly that some shots would be topless. After a few outfits, I suggested jeans-only for her next. She responded by saying she didn't know I meant that... And it wasn't from meeting me; she seemed in no hurry to leave (I must not have seemed creepy.) She wanted to continue, but with her shirt.

If she was truthful, I'd have still scheduled with her and even asked for more shoots (non-revealing ones); she made an excellent model. But, I hate lying; and I think some girls do it to take advantage - assuming you'll then shoot with them.


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Apr 01, 2018 02:34 |  #8

icor1031 wrote in post #18597453 (external link)
If she was truthful, I'd have still scheduled with her and even asked for more shoots (non-revealing ones); she made an excellent model. But, I hate lying; and I think some girls do it to take advantage - assuming you'll then shoot with them.

1. What makes you think she lied. Maybe she was going to pose topless but then at the last moment changed her mind.

2. These people aren't models. They are random strangers who, for a moment, thought it might be fun to try modelling and then changed their minds. If you want models who turn up hire actual models from a modelling agency.

3. A restaurant (like many) had a problem with no shows. People booked and then failed to show up or call, leaving them with an empty table. The owner came up with the idea of having the staff ask (at the time of booking) "if you change your mind or cant make it would it would be great if you could call/text us please. Will you do that for us please?".

By asking this question (and getting an answer) they created an obligation on the part of the customer to show up or to notify them. The number of no-shows declined and most of those who didn't show notified in advance.


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Apr 01, 2018 05:57 |  #9

Dan Marchant wrote in post #18598025 (external link)
1. What makes you think she lied. Maybe she was going to pose topless but then at the last moment changed her mind.

2. These people aren't models. They are random strangers who, for a moment, thought it might be fun to try modelling and then changed their minds. If you want models who turn up hire actual models from a modelling agency.

3. A restaurant (like many) had a problem with no shows. People booked and then failed to show up or call, leaving them with an empty table. The owner came up with the idea of having the staff ask (at the time of booking) "if you change your mind or cant make it would it would be great if you could call/text us please. Will you do that for us please?".

By asking this question (and getting an answer) they created an obligation on the part of the customer to show up or to notify them. The number of no-shows declined and most of those who didn't show notified in advance.

1) That would be a lie. "I didn't know you meant that." vs "I changed my mind / I'm not comfortable with the idea, now."

3) Thanks.


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Apr 01, 2018 09:47 |  #10

Just curious -- Are they paid cash?


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Apr 01, 2018 10:51 |  #11

If you are paying them save your coin and hire models that either cost more OR have a reputation for being professional. They ARE out there but you have to do your due diligence.

One thing you can do is start charging them... ahead of time.


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Apr 01, 2018 11:30 |  #12

icor1031 wrote in post #18597176 (external link)
About 1 in 20 models that show interest (fill a form to model with me) will follow through all the way and actually show up.
About 1 in 3 that schedule will arrive. Around half of those who bail, never offer the courtesy of a letting me know. Heck, I send a reminder and they don't even respond to that!
Those who cancel and let me know that something came up, don't reschedule. They stop responding to messages.

I've spoken to four other photographers in my city. Three of them have similar trouble with models. Like me, one of them is so frustrated that he's almost completely given up on doing fun portraits. And this guy is a pro; he went to photography school (though that means little), is employed as a photographer, and does magazine shoots.
The one photographer who doesn't have much trouble is in school. So, he sees these girls almost every day. If they bail on him, they have to see him face to face.

My question: is there anything reasonable I can do? I want to start doing creative shoots, but I'm frustrated; people keep wasting my time (helping them prepare for the shoot) and ruin my schedule for no gain.

It is not simply that 'models are flakes'...all too many PEOPLE are flakes.
In some cases, they may be literally 'on the way' but totally inept in showing up AT the scheduled time. One daughter is consistently late to everything....her sisters 'place bets' (good humoredly) on what time she will show up for something which is SCHEDULED to start at a specific time. Just yesterday, 55 minutes late.

On top of that, as pointed out by Pekka and others, the world is suspicious of devious intentions. You are an unknown to your models...what proof do you have that you are on the up-and-up as a photographer? A website is no proof unto itself. Put yourself if their shoes, and provide some good referrals to female friends/relatives who they can call on the provided phone number, to lend some legitimacy to your claims.


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Apr 01, 2018 13:46 |  #13

S.Horton wrote in post #18598189 (external link)
Just curious -- Are they paid cash?

No, trade shoot; I wouldn't pay amateurs.

FarmerTed1971 wrote in post #18598233 (external link)
One thing you can do is start charging them... ahead of time.

I did a post recently offering creative shoots, but with a $50 deposit - refunded only if they arrive. I haven't had any applicants at all, but at least right now - I'd rather work with no one than with what I've been doing.

Wilt wrote in post #18598261 (external link)
It is not simply that 'models are flakes'...all too many PEOPLE are flakes.
In some cases, they may be literally 'on the way' but totally inept in showing up AT the scheduled time. One daughter is consistently late to everything....her sisters 'place bets' (good humoredly) on what time she will show up for something which is SCHEDULED to start at a specific time. Just yesterday, 55 minutes late.

On top of that, as pointed out by Pekka and others, the world is suspicious of devious intentions. You are an unknown to your models...what proof do you have that you are on the up-and-up as a photographer? A website is no proof unto itself. Put yourself if their shoes, and provide some good referrals to female friends/relatives who they can call on the provided phone number, to lend some legitimacy to your claims.

Yes, people are. I've had similar luck with people in general; it's why I rarely socialize. It's not that I'm anti social, but people don't respond to their texts, voice mails, FB messages, or keep the plans we make in person. But when they see me in person, they keep saying we need to get together *facepalm.*


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Apr 02, 2018 13:57 |  #14

Try Model Mayhem if you haven't - at least you can do a casting call for models in your area, check their references if they've worked with other photographers, and see what types of shoots they are comfortable doing. It won't eliminate all flakes, but the basic membership is free and should help.


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Apr 02, 2018 14:02 |  #15

James33 wrote in post #18598894 (external link)
Try Model Mayhem if you haven't - at least you can do a casting call for models in your area, check their references if they've worked with other photographers, and see what types of shoots they are comfortable doing. It won't eliminate all flakes, but the basic membership is free and should help.

Yes sir, been on there for a while. I've found two girls to work with, but there are *very few* in my area. Useful site, though.


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