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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 19 Jul 2018 (Thursday) 04:06
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Contract, use and payment advise

 
urbanfreestyle
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Jul 19, 2018 04:06 |  #1

Hi all,
So i am looking for some advice in regards to a potential long term gig i have coming up.
My wife works at a horse racing yard and i have been up a few times taking photos of the horses and yard life. I wanted to capture a different side of this industry showing the behind the scenes that it's not all winnners and champagne.

I have discussed with the yard owner that i can shoot with his horses at the training yard, gallops and stables and he has said he would pay for some of the photos however no useage and price have been discussed. He has seen my work and looked through my portfolio and is very happy with what i capture.
I know, i know i should have spoken to him about this before i started shooting but it was a very organic progression.

So.... He would like to use my images on his website to promote the sale of shares in his horses and for publicity.

I was trawling the web trying to find a release template but came up short. The photography will continue untill approx early December and a new agreement in the new year.

I spend approx 4hrs at the yard per session, around 2-4 hrs editing, submitting approx 30 shots per session.

Would charging half day rate in the reigon of £200-300 be reasonable? This will include unwatermarked images and use of those images on the web and for advertising.
Or would it be better to charge for the season in the range of £800-1200 again including unwatermarked images and use of those images on the web and for advertising?

I appreciate your time and responses.


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Jul 19, 2018 05:57 |  #2

The lump sum payment doesn't represent some kind of discount does it?

How you bill doesn't matter, but I would think most would rather spread out the payments.

Day rate is what you can get away with.


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tcphoto1
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Jul 19, 2018 07:32 |  #3

I think that you're selling yourself short, thirty finished images is a lot of content for that rate. I don't know what numbers the client generate but your images will help rebrand his business. If it were me, I would license half the images or double the fee.


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urbanfreestyle
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Jul 19, 2018 07:34 as a reply to  @ Left Handed Brisket's post |  #4

Thanks for the reply.
I just took the average pricing for half day in the UK and thought that would be right and the season rate i was totally unsure of. I will certainately be doing more than 6 sessions so perhaps i should be charging more for the season cost.
I could offer season pricing with monthly installments?

Not sure on the contract in regards to licencing the photos for use.


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urbanfreestyle
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Jul 19, 2018 07:37 |  #5

tcphoto1 wrote in post #18665843 (external link)
I think that you're selling yourself short, thirty finished images is a lot of content for that rate. I don't know what numbers the client generate but your images will help rebrand his business. If it were me, I would license half the images or double the fee.

Thanks, I know the horses they own are worth a lot and shares go out for several thousands of pounds for a 1/4.


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Post edited 11 months ago by Left Handed Brisket. (2 edits in all)
     
Jul 19, 2018 08:05 |  #6

urbanfreestyle wrote in post #18665844 (external link)
Thanks for the reply.
I just took the average pricing for half day in the UK and thought that would be right and the season rate i was totally unsure of. I will certainately be doing more than 6 sessions so perhaps i should be charging more for the season cost.
I could offer season pricing with monthly installments?

Not sure on the contract in regards to licencing the photos for use.

Stop thinking about what you can offer, and start thinking about what you NEED. Seriously, stop. It is a waste of your time and will end up with you giving sh!t away before you even have any objection to your preferred deal.

When you enter a negotiation you need to only present your ideal proposal (a mix of what is best for you and what the market will bear). You must also have in mind your "lowest acceptable offer" so that you don't walk away losing money.

Rights is more tricky. I have always worked in the commercial arena. When I use to buy 95 percent of my photography I always included "perpetual exclusive rights" in the RFP with a provision that the photog could display the work in his portfolio. Always.

Now I assume that is what the client wants and price my time accordingly. Most of the time I don't even discuss it. If it is an image that I know the client will have on their website for years to come I demand more than if it will be a image that is tossed in the bin a month later. There are a lot of people who think that attitude is nuts, but ultimately it is the client's expectations and knowledge of the market place that determine how that stuff works out.


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urbanfreestyle
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Jul 19, 2018 08:10 as a reply to  @ Left Handed Brisket's post |  #7

So i should grab him have a sit down, find out what he wants and then tell him what i need to make that happen?


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Post edited 11 months ago by Left Handed Brisket. (3 edits in all)
     
Jul 19, 2018 08:29 |  #8

I typically want to discuss specific requirements and deliverables on the phone asking as many questions as I think the client needs to answer. Sometimes they won't have an answer to a question, this is good because it adds value to what you provide. Do your research and you can probably come up with something they haven't considered.

If you have questions after the initial consult, follow up, but don't do it 5 different times. Get it together and follow up once.

Write all that up and come up with a price that works for you. Depending on the project I would sit down and go over the previously discussed requirements and deliverables. Provide the client with a list of everything you have discussed. Ask if that covers everything. If it does, tell them what you have in mind for payment and scheduling. I do not present any price on paper unless I have been given a budget and the price falls within that range. Things written down can seem final and spoil a deal quickly, if you just say "what I have in mind is ..." that leaves things open to discussion. If they agree with no changes have the deal written out in full and present it to them immediately. Get the signature and get out before they change their mind. ;)

If they have changes, come to terms and get home and make them quickly and return with a modified agreement.


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urbanfreestyle
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Jul 19, 2018 08:35 as a reply to  @ Left Handed Brisket's post |  #9

what im picking up is that i need to be certain of myself and put that across to the client, Understand his needs, Collect my thoughts and options, sumerise with him, then make a proposal.


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Jul 19, 2018 08:39 |  #10

Yeah, they aren't hiring you to push you around and tell you how to do your work. They are hiring you to do your job and have you add value to their efforts. So do it.


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urbanfreestyle
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Jul 19, 2018 09:04 as a reply to  @ Left Handed Brisket's post |  #11

so in this example (horse racing) they train the horses and are hiring me to show what they can do and to make them look good. show the world how great their horses are etc


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Jul 19, 2018 09:20 |  #12

So you should find the client's competition, browse their websites, and figure out how you are going to make them look as good or better than the competition.

Go in with a plan, Stan.


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urbanfreestyle
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Jul 19, 2018 10:07 as a reply to  @ Left Handed Brisket's post |  #13

Good idea on the full market research. will need to make my client stand out from the crowd.


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Post edited 11 months ago by ksbal.
     
Jul 19, 2018 13:48 |  #14

What do you want to be paid an hour? how much time does it take to take a photo, edit photo, gas to get back and forth sit down selections/discussions​, etc? computer/camera gear/car/food/insuranc​e/etc... are all expenses to think about.

You could end up doing it so cheap you are paying them to be there, maybe not directly, but what are you and your time worth?

Also, I think all you need is a long lens for another perspective for your fuji kit. You don't need a 1DII to get this job done. The perspectives you have in your port are unique and very cool... stick with them for the main, accent with some longer shots... but I wouldn't switch systems... Getting nice shots of horses with wide angle lenses is a challenge but you have some great ones in your port..


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urbanfreestyle
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Jul 19, 2018 17:21 as a reply to  @ ksbal's post |  #15

Thanks, I'm actually thinking of getting a 135 vintage lens and try some shots with that :-)

Will have to get a calculation on my expenses for sure. Especially being they want to use the images for marketing/ advertising I need to sit and have a propper think


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