EOS-R - It's out. Thoughts?

Charlie wrote in post #18702424
You are missing the practicality aspect, which I was trying to express.

Nevermind standards, those conventions were broken when the 5Dii was introduced.

FF video should be expected when buying a FF camera.

You still seem to be missing my point that Super-35mm is a cinema standard. How can casually say "nevermind standards"? There have been no major motion picture that has used the 5DII for the majority of their shots. Arri, Panasonic, Blackmagic, Sony, Canon are some of the major Super-35mm formats that have been used in the majority of motion pictures. The RED Dragon has a 1.76x crop relative to FF in 4K: just to throw another wrench as to FF being a "must" for video.

umphotography wrote in post #18702427
Major advantage of any Canon over the Sony Cameras

Those of us with 20K in canon glass and 5K in lighting equipment have equipment that works flawlessly

No ADAPTERS NEEDED-I dont have to buy Sony Native glass

Waiting 6-8 months for the canon mirrorless aimed at professionals is the smarter move----Unless you want to buy 10-15K is Sony glass

Yep, this morning I was thinking about lighting as well. This release makes me sick to my stomach. The only choice for me is to stick with my 5DIII until the pro version comes out and see if they address the 4K video crop.

If I didn't have an interest in standard 2018 camera video performance, I'd possibly get this camera for landscape photography.

samueli wrote in post #18702386
But 35mm turning into almost 80mm, after crop to 16:9 then the 1.66 factor, is no less than a disaster. I'm trying very very hard to want this camera, but the severity of the crop is becoming a non starter for me. A reasonable crop might have been ok, but this approaches weird.

davesrose wrote in post #18702389
I'm not sure what you mean about 80mm: Super-35 has always been 24.89mm at its widest. My point was about accepted cinema standards and the cinema systems used. 65mm width has been the most accepted 70mm format.

I'm assuming samueli means that taking a ~1.7x crop out of the middle of a full frame sensor would result in a lens with a 35mm focal length giving a field of view similar to using a 60mm lens on full frame. If that ~1.7x crop was 3:2 ratio (like the original sensor) then further cropping the height down to a 16:9 ratio would reduce the effective diagonal field of view yet further.

However, I *think* it might not be that bad. The 5D4 sensor is 6720x4480 (3:2 ratio), with the max 4K video resolution 4096x2160 (17:9 ratio). The ratio of the diagonals between those two is approx 1.74:1, so the field of view of a lens with a 35mm focal length in 4K crop mode should be approximately 35x1.744 = ~61mm; so not as bad as 80mm.

For the context of this thread, I'm assuming this will be the same with the EOS R; given the similar sensor resolution.

davesrose wrote in post #18702431
The RED Dragon has a 1.76x crop relative to FF in 4K: just to throw another wrench as to FF being a "must" for video.

If your buying a RED, your lens selection, purpose and technique is going to be completely different than a hybrid camera. I was almost ok with the 1.66 working distance crop, but then someone threw in a reminder of the additional crop for 16:9, and that makes me figuratively throw my arms up in disgust. It's too much sacrifice on working distance in a market where that much sacrifice isn't the norm.

If there are heat issues or rolling shutter issues, fine. Put limits on recording time or be up-front with quality concerns in varied situations. With MagicLantern, if I chose to record near 4K on my 5DIII, I barely get a minute at a time. And depending on the scene being too dark or light, I might get 10 seconds before it craps out. I can work within some limits, but at least release something to work with; not a tease where I may not even be able to shoot 4K in the constraints of my environment.

I better have a break from this thread as I'm starting to get angry.

samueli wrote in post #18702436
If your buying a RED, your lens selection, purpose and technique is going to be completely different than a hybrid camera. I was almost ok with the 1.66 working distance crop, but then someone threw in a reminder of the additional crop for 16:9, and that ended it . It's too much sacrifice on working distance in a market where that much sacrifice isn't the norm.

See my post above; I'm not entirely sure there's an extra crop for 16:9 on top of the stated ~1.7x; unless I've misunderstood.

I.e. the ~1.7x crop is the total crop factor with the camera going from all its pixels [at 3:2 ratio] down to just the pixels for a 16:9 4K crop.

samueli wrote in post #18702436
If your buying a RED, your lens selection, purpose and technique is going to be completely different than a hybrid camera. I was almost ok with the 1.66 working distance crop, but then someone threw in a reminder of the additional crop for 16:9, and that ended it . It's too much sacrifice on working distance in a market where that much sacrifice isn't the norm.

As I've already stated, that's the difference with background. Since there is chatter on this thread (which happens with new camera announcements), let me quote a previous post:

davesrose wrote in post #18702403
There in lies the point IMO. I'm talking about recording size: super-35mm has been an industry standard with cinema: their systems and methodologies revolve around those standards and not 3:2 35mm stills. So there are different perspectives: cinematographers wanting the cinema standards they're used to (and already heavily invested in), and new videographers using the argument about lens aspect (and can build their new system around HDSLR).

I think it mainly boils down to there is no "one" answer, and people have different applications

RDKirk wrote in post #18702186
The thing that most often makes a difference between getting a the picture or not, day in and day out, is often control of the camera. The ability to customize controls on this camera appear to be amazing. I'd want it just for that.

Exactly. I realize it's easier to talk about hard specs, but the way one interacts with the camera while shooting is the big difference maker.

Dlee13 wrote in post #18702351
I was listening to the Master Photography podcast, it was so funny to hear them discussing the camera when they didn't even have a hands on or know much about it.

I think most people don't realize and think Canon are copying Sony with the touch and drag AF but this was actually included on the M5 and honestly works a bit better than on my A7III, I think mostly due to the touch screen being better on the Canon.

They also didn't know that Eye AF works in Servo on the EOS R and kept going on about how it only works in AF-S.

Seems to happen every time. Eventually they will get the story right, but only after rushing to their vlogging cameras and parroting other ill informed squawking heads.

WilsonFlyer wrote in post #18702352
Why is everybody missing the most important thing? Everybody's talking about crop and lenses, and while that's certainly important and crippling, it's not about the impact of the lenses. It's about the LIGHT! More importantly, it's about the lack thereof. Here we sit with an entire FF sensor to catch buckets of light in dark environments and we have to settle for essentially the abilities of an APS-C. That's the big deal with me, and by far and away the biggest negative to cropped 35.

Each sensel is still capturing the same amount of light.

sploo wrote in post #18702439
See my post above; I'm not entirely sure there's an extra crop for 16:9 on top of the stated ~1.7x; unless I've misunderstood.

I.e. the ~1.7x crop is the total crop factor with the camera going from all its pixels [at 3:2 ratio] down to just the pixels for a 16:9 4K crop.

My reference to the RED Dragon is from their stated width-based crop factors going from 6K down . The actual size for that sensor is 30.7 mm x 15.8 mm. So that's another benefit of using a dedicated cinema camera: 1:1 aspect.

davesrose wrote in post #18702431
You still seem to be missing my point that Super-35mm is a cinema standard. How can casually say "nevermind standards"? There have been no major motion pictures that has used the 5DII for the majority of their shots. Arri, Panasonic, Blackmagic, Sony, Canon are some of the major Super-35mm formats that have been used in the majority of motion pictures. The RED Dragon has a 1.76x crop relative to FF in 4K: just to throw another wrench as to FF being a "must" for video.

you are wrong.

While super 35 is more common, there are cinema grade cameras that do FF. Arri's flagship model does FF, Red's flagship does FF, Sony's flagship Venice does FF.

and you miss the original point.

You buy a FF camera, you expect it to shoot video in FF. Historically, this has been the case dating back all the way to the 5Dii. Bringing in cinema standards is nonsense, this isnt a cinema camera, and it's wrong anyhow.

davesrose wrote in post #18702443
My reference to the RED Dragon is from their stated width-based crop factors going from 6K down . The actual size for that sensor is 30.7 mm x 15.8 mm. So that's another benefit of using a dedicated cinema camera: 1:1 aspect.

I was referencing 4K video on the Canon 5D4 (on the assumption the EOS R will be the same); can't speak for the RED cameras as I've never used one.

Charlie wrote in post #18702445
you are wrong.

While super 35 is more common, there are cinema grade cameras that do FF. Arri's flagship model does FF, Red's flagship does FF, Sony's flagship Venice does FF.

and you miss the original point.

You buy a FF camera, you expect it to shoot video in FF. Historically, this has been the case dating back all the way to the 5Dii. Bringing in cinema standards is nonsense, this isnt a cinema camera, and it's wrong anyhow.

Now you are wrong. Arri's flagship has a sensor larger then FF. Red's flagship is larger then FF. But the most common 4K cinema recording are done on the likes of Super-35mm sensors like the Arri Alexa series.

Choderboy wrote in post #18702415
Look, it's a gear forum so loving your camera is OK. I think your taking it too far though....

Note to self: Do NOT buy Talley's 80D! ߘ

Bassat wrote in post #18702453
Note to self: Do NOT buy Talley's 80D! ߘ

oof, and people complain about me sharing too much personal information.

Bassat wrote in post #18702453
Note to self: Do NOT buy Talley's 80D! ߘ

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18702466
oof, and people complain about me sharing too much personal information.

Just confirm that the hinge on the screen isn't... you know... "gummed up", and the rest of the camera should be fairly washable

Until this thread, I never thought to do a UV light test on someone else's camera gear before picking up