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FORUMS News & Rumors Camera Rumors and Predictions 
Thread started 26 Oct 2018 (Friday) 06:34
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"The DSLR is dead" EOS R and cell phone cameras taking over - so they say

 
Wilt
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Wilt. (4 edits in all)
     
Jan 09, 2019 17:17 |  #31

As for the Subject line contention that cell phone cameras are taking over...
I never previously tried to make a comparison, but I got curious about the quality of lens to be seen typically in a smartphone. My 7DII has 20Mpixels, and my Motorola Droid BallisticNylon has 21MPixel, so not a widely disparate comparison to make! I taped a 20 dollar bill on the refrigerator, and photographed it with both cameras, trying to have the money fill approximately the same size vertical in both shots. I deliberately made no attempt to fill the frame with the money, but instead captured the money at a relatively small size so that the fine engraving detail could be used to assess the detail resolution provided by each lens.
Here is one of the full frames so that you can see what portion of the vertical was filled.

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/POTN%202013%20Post%20Mar1/wholeframe_zpsnw21ianq.jpg


Then I brought both shots into Paintshop Pro and displayed them side by side so that I could do a screen grab for posting...

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/POTN%202013%20Post%20Mar1/detail%20compare_zpslguoxk55.jpg

on the left is the 7DII with Canon 17-55mm zoom lens at ISO 400 1/30 f/3.5, on the right is the smartphone photo at ISO 100, 1/40 f/2. On my monitor, the crops are displayed at about 10X the magnification of the whole frame detail, and the whole frame is displayed at about a 6X enlargement of the sensor image.

For detail comparison, look at the detail engraved below the second 'R' in the word 'Reserve' , or look at the engraved detail below the 'N' in 'Note',.
While the function of a camera is well supplanted by a smartphone camera, one can see that there is a considerable difference in the detail quality presented, even when pixel count is similar! While a smartphone shot might work OK for an 8x12 print, it isn't going to be able to stand up as well to examination of even a relatively modest 16x24" print. So unless the Leica lens on an Apple offers vastly superior performance over what is found on my Motorola phone, I wouldn't give up mirrorless or dSLR because I have a smartphone, even an Apple one.

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bobbyz
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Post edited over 2 years ago by bobbyz. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 09, 2019 17:43 |  #32

Wilt, by that logic I can take a shot with my 16MP XT1 and my 50MP GFX and then say XT1 is total crap if I need to print say 40x30.:) As far as I know Motorola phones don't have computational photography like Pixels.


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Wilt
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Wilt. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 09, 2019 17:56 |  #33

bobbyz wrote in post #18788143 (external link)
Wilt, by that logic I can take a shot with my 16MP XT1 and my 50MP GFX and then say XT1 is total crap if I need to print say 40x30.:) As far as I know Motorola phones have computational photography like Pixels.

16MP XT1? Never heard of that, have heard of 10MP XTi.
When you consider than the real resolution difference (single axis) difference between 16MP (like a 1DMk4) and 50MP (5DS) is only 77% better single axis sensor resolution (3264 pixels vs. 5792 pixels, Nyquist says 1631 lines vs 2895 lines of detail; at 30x40" that is 2.1 lines/mm vs. 3.8 lines/mm, both are similarly bad), and the difference in observed detail resolution between my Canon and my smartphone seems to be far greater than that.

bobbyz wrote in post #18788143 (external link)
As far as I know Motorola phones have computational photography like Pixels.

huh ?


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bobbyz
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Post edited over 2 years ago by bobbyz. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 09, 2019 19:09 |  #34

[QUOTE=Wilt;18788160]1​6MP XT1?
[/Quopte]

Fuji XT1.

huh ?

The magic of software with some custom hardware:) Try portrait mode, HDR+, Night Mode etc for example. Plenty good for most folks. On a recent trip, I was picking my wife's Pixel 3XL more than my Fuji XT1. HDR was better than most folks post here in natural looking HDR thread.


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Wilt
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Wilt.
     
Jan 09, 2019 19:17 as a reply to  @ bobbyz's post |  #35

OK, thx for the elaboration...I still don't get what point you're making.


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bobbyz
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Jan 09, 2019 20:49 as a reply to  @ Wilt's post |  #36

Point I am making is that lot of tricks being done in hardware/software on your cellphones and the field is changing so rapidly. The output from the small sensor is made to make a look lot better but what the big tech companies are doing. A year ago I didn't like what the fake bokeh did, now it is pretty realistic. Think HDR on the fly. Why can't the camera take multiple shots and make a nice looking HDR and give the output. No wonder lot of folks who would have started with a dSLR are more than happy with the cellphone. They don't have to think twice to get the shot.


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Wilt
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Wilt. (7 edits in all)
     
Jan 09, 2019 21:37 |  #37

bobbyz wrote in post #18788297 (external link)
Point I am making is that lot of tricks being done in hardware/software on your cellphones and the field is changing so rapidly. The output from the small sensor is made to make a look lot better but what the big tech companies are doing. A year ago I didn't like what the fake bokeh did, now it is pretty realistic. Think HDR on the fly. Why can't the camera take multiple shots and make a nice looking HDR and give the output. No wonder lot of folks who would have started with a dSLR are more than happy with the cellphone. They don't have to think twice to get the shot.

Your comments show that you have apparently fallen into the typical digital shooter's quicksand, of forgetting the half of any image driven by the lens. Pixel size (larger in larger format) really only matters when light is low intensity and the circuit noise is the limiting factor in IQ. Software only can work with what is presented to it, it cannot fabricate detail; it might be able to 'fake it'.

In my comparison, the shortage was in the limited amount of detail resolution delivered by the lens to the sensor; the smartphone lens is almost never anything but the most rudimentary design with few elements to reduce abberations, etc. ...the 21MPixel smartphone sensor could capture a whole lot more and better detail if only the lens only provided it. THAT is why its IQ was beaten by the Canon dSLR.


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Post edited over 2 years ago by Two Hot Shoes.
     
Jan 10, 2019 05:33 |  #38

Wilt wrote in post #18788323 (external link)
Your comments show that you have apparently fallen into the typical digital shooter's quicksand, of forgetting the half of any image driven by the lens. Pixel size (larger in larger format) really only matters when light is low intensity and the circuit noise is the limiting factor in IQ. Software only can work with what is presented to it, it cannot fabricate detail; it might be able to 'fake it'.

In my comparison, the shortage was in the limited amount of detail resolution delivered by the lens to the sensor; the smartphone lens is almost never anything but the most rudimentary design with few elements to reduce abberations, etc. ...the 21MPixel smartphone sensor could capture a whole lot more and better detail if only the lens only provided it. THAT is why its IQ was beaten by the Canon dSLR.

I beg to differ, I shoot a lot of very high resolution images for the likes of hotels, airports and shops etc... there is a lot you can fabricate with software. Today I shoot some detail that are to be printed 1.1 x 3.1 meters and have to look non pixelated up close, how many megapixels do I need for that? (Hint: It's quite a lot).

Having said that, look up the Sony World Photography Award - mobile. Gear not really all that important in a day to day kind of way. A great image is a great image regardless on what camera/lens you use & I seriously doubt anyone could tell the sensor size let alone the system used.


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bobbyz
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Post edited over 2 years ago by bobbyz. (4 edits in all)
     
Jan 10, 2019 08:24 |  #39

Wilt wrote in post #18788323 (external link)
Your comments show that you have apparently fallen into the typical digital shooter's quicksand, of forgetting the half of any image driven by the lens. Pixel size (larger in larger format) really only matters when light is low intensity and the circuit noise is the limiting factor in IQ. Software only can work with what is presented to it, it cannot fabricate detail; it might be able to 'fake it'.

Well it can fake it pretty good. If you read my response I used the term fake it already couple of times. Read here some about superzoom https://www.dpreview.c​om …computational-photography (external link)

In my comparison, the shortage was in the limited amount of detail resolution delivered by the lens to the sensor; the smartphone lens is almost never anything but the most rudimentary design with few elements to reduce abberations, etc. ...the 21MPixel smartphone sensor could capture a whole lot more and better detail if only the lens only provided it. THAT is why its IQ was beaten by the Canon dSLR.

You were saying nobody will know difference in 8x10. To me that is already pretty good. If they printed 16x20 yes. How many print now a days? And if I printed 40x30or higher like I said with my 16MP mirroless, it will be just as crappy as cellphone picture. So all depends what you shoot for.


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Post edited over 2 years ago by joedlh.
     
Jan 10, 2019 09:27 |  #40

bobbyz wrote in post #18786881 (external link)
Last trip I took my XT1 with kit lens and also used Pixel 3 XL. I was amazed what the cellphone could do with a tiny sensor.

I have a Pixel phone that has the night sight feature. At a family gathering, a grab shot presented itself. My good camera was in the bag. So I took this fleeting moment with the phone. I was impressed at the result. That is until I looked at it in Photoshop. The image quality was nowhere near what I could get with my 7Dii. I dispensed with any thought of printing it at 8x10. Still, as a memorable image it has value.

Nobody can deny that the phone image quality has shown dramatic improvements. Those who post photos on Instagram or any social networking platforms will not be swayed from the belief that a phone camera is all they need. Some of us are more demanding.

As for mirrorless, I haven't tried a more recent one. I used a friend's EVF Olympus a few years ago and I didn't like it. When I shoot, I look for moments. Reaction time is important. My reaction time from the decision to shoot to pressing the shutter release is ~220msec. With the EVF I had the distinct impression that I wasn't seeing the image as it was happening. I felt handicapped. Sometimes I will open my other eye to look at the scene while I'm composing a shot or waiting for the moment. Having asynchrony between what my eyes are seeing is unsettling. That doesn't happen with an optical viewfinder.


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Jan 10, 2019 10:26 |  #41

joedlh wrote in post #18788625 (external link)
I have a Pixel phone that has the night sight feature. At a family gathering, a grab shot presented itself. My good camera was in the bag. So I took this fleeting moment with the phone. I was impressed at the result. That is until I looked at it in Photoshop. The image quality was nowhere near what I could get with my 7Dii. I dispensed with any thought of printing it at 8x10. Still, as a memorable image it has value.

Nobody can deny that the phone image quality has shown dramatic improvements. Those who post photos on Instagram or any social networking platforms will not be swayed from the belief that a phone camera is all they need. Some of us are more demanding.

As for mirrorless, I haven't tried a more recent one. I used a friend's EVF Olympus a few years ago and I didn't like it. When I shoot, I look for moments. Reaction time is important. My reaction time from the decision to shoot to pressing the shutter release is ~220msec. With the EVF I had the distinct impression that I wasn't seeing the image as it was happening. I felt handicapped. Sometimes I will open my other eye to look at the scene while I'm composing a shot or waiting for the moment. Having asynchrony between what my eyes are seeing is unsettling. That doesn't happen with an optical viewfinder.
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Well in my case I shoot mostly posed shots with strobes and EVF has been awesome. On my XT1 there is a lag but I didn't see major issues like some say. I tried some baseball with it and got very good shots. Just wish I had 300/400mm f2.8 lens to pair with it. On XT3 I don't think there is any lag. Same with A9. Being able to nail focus with eye detect is really game changer. If I was shooting at f8, I care less. Lot of my shots are at wider apertures and there dSLRs fail quite a bit.


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Jan 10, 2019 10:27 |  #42

bobbyz wrote in post #18788599 (external link)
You were saying nobody will know difference in 8x10. To me that is already pretty good. If they printed 16x20 yes. How many print now a days? ...So all depends what you shoot for.

You have just argued a pretty convincing case for the dSLR to not disappear entirely due to the commonality of the smartphone....there will be needs that a smartphone simply will not suffice, due to the needs/desires of the client.

bobbyz wrote in post #18788599 (external link)
And if I printed 40x30or higher like I said with my 16MP mirroless, it will be just as crappy as cellphone picture. So all depends what you shoot for.

You again neglect to consider the contribution of the LENS to the detail of the photo, when assuming the 16MP mirrorless image will be as good/bad as your cellphone...if you really think so, you can trade out lenses and keep only the kit lens for your camera.


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Jan 10, 2019 11:23 |  #43

Wilt wrote in post #18788664 (external link)
You have just argued a pretty convincing case for the dSLR to not disappear entirely due to the commonality of the smartphone....there will be needs that a smartphone simply will not suffice, due to the needs/desires of the client.

You again neglect to consider the contribution of the LENS to the detail of the photo, when assuming the 16MP mirrorless image will be as good/bad as your cellphone...if you really think so, you can trade out lenses and keep only the kit lens for your camera.

I never said dSLRs (or dedicated cameras) will become absolute but lot less folks are buying entry level cameras in general as phone cameras are getting better and good enough for most. Will dedicated cameras disappear no. There is always need for them from folks like us who hang on these forums.

Regarding picture quality all I am saying is that there is always a better camera out there than the one you own. When I compare my medium format to my aps-c I see a huge different in image quality. Just like you see when you compared your dSLR to your phone. If I print 8x10, 16x20, the difference between my XT1 and GFX doesn't matter. If I print way bigger, it does. At much bigger size comparing medium format to my aps-c is just like comparing dSLR to a phone. I am not saying aps-c image from my camera is just like the phone image. It is when comparing it to my bigger camera, it looks like crap. Not sure why hard to understand that. I know lenses are part of the equation. Allmost all of the lenses I own are top notch, whether Canon (when I owned dSLRs) or Fuji (now) See signature below. :)


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Jan 10, 2019 11:35 as a reply to  @ bobbyz's post |  #44

Not hard at all to understand what you just posted...you simply did not state that in that manner before. To the contrary it sounded as if you were of the 'smartphone quality is all you need ever' camp. You earlier argued the 'faking it' was plenty good enough, even when pixel interpolation added zero detail. I know I am not the only one to read your various earlier remarks that way...there is a Like on that earlier interpretation that I had about what you wrote.


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Jan 10, 2019 11:39 |  #45

Wilt wrote in post #18788692 (external link)
Not hard at all to understand what you just posted...you simply did not state that in that manner before. To the contrary it sounded as if you were of the 'smartphone quality is all you need ever' camp.

.
That is how his earlier comments seemed to me, too.

I am glad that he clarified his statements in this most recent post that he made. . The "cell phone cameras are good enough" position is a ridiculous position to take when one is in a discussion with a bunch of super demanding photography geeks on a dedicated photography forum.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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