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Thread started 26 Oct 2018 (Friday) 06:34
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"The DSLR is dead" EOS R and cell phone cameras taking over - so they say

 
Croasdail
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Feb 11, 2019 08:25 as a reply to  @ post 18808567 |  #121

Interesting. Don't have an R so I have no idea how in practice it is a real issue. You would have to have a crazy fast subject for it to change direction enough in a half second or what ever it really is for it to really impact tracking. Just me, but my solution for the issue would to be just to shoot a little looser - back out 10 to 20%. The R is a 30 mpx camera, right? So lets say you are shooting 20 percent looser to compensate for the delay in response, that would give you the same as shooting with a 24 mpx sensor after cropping. That is still a lot of resolution and you've created a buffer for change in direction. In my experience it shouldn't keep you from getting the shot..... that said, you have a 30 mpx camera, you would like to be able to use them all... so I get the annoyance.

The flip side to that, is the two events I shot this weekend, I rarely chipped after getting my initial setting dialed in. And I've usually done that before the event starts. It's kind of funny - one of the events I shot was on TV - so my wife watched from home. Evidently I was in the background of the a lot coverage, and my wife asked me when I got home if I ever lower my camera from my eye. Getting real time images in my viewfinder has all be erased the need to chimp, and I can keep the camera at the ready more often. So its a give and take thing. Maybe you loose a fraction of a second between frames, but you gain not needing to chimp.

Each has its nuances you learn to shoot around. I'll have to play with the R sometime to see what it really is like. I have the feeling it is a lot like shooting the original 5D or 20D back in the day... but with the advantage of full frame focus and meeting coverage. Maybe kinda nostalgic.... but then again we got great images from too.... we thought the Mk IIn was the bees knees for a long time.




  
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Post edited over 2 years ago by TeamSpeed. (7 edits in all)
     
Feb 11, 2019 09:02 |  #122

Croasdail wrote in post #18808973 (external link)
Interesting. Don't have an R so I have no idea how in practice it is a real issue. You would have to have a crazy fast subject for it to change direction enough in a half second or what ever it really is for it to really impact tracking.

On a fast break, a top pro player can cover 15' in 1/2 second. Some NBA players only take 3.5 seconds to go from baseline to baseline. If a player makes a fast break, then launches in the air, you now have 2D movement to track and during a 1/2 second blackout, you have already lost the player, especially when there are other players trying to block and jockey for position, capturing your focus for wherever you have your focus point. Of course many of us aren't trying to cover Lebron and others in his performance circle.

Now an average NBA player will cover about 7-10' in 1/2 second in a full-on run for the basket. Again with other players in the way and if that player moves direction (ie up into the air), not being able to track the player with your chosen AF point is very tough to land shots.

Why put up with that lag and potential loss when there are no such issues with DSLRs? Much less stress, and more keepers... There isn't much advantage that a Canon mirrorless brings to the table for this kind of shooting... for now.


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Wilt
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Post edited over 2 years ago by Wilt. (7 edits in all)
     
Feb 11, 2019 09:39 |  #123

Croasdil, on several occasions in the past I have wrritten about EVF viewfinder lag at 60Hz and 120Hz refresh rates, and now far a baseball has moved from the viewfinder-indicated position in the space of one refresh, so that it is out of position by a certain amount. I quantified that recently at theoretical 240Hz viewfinder update to 7 inches just this past week. https://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=18807550 and that seems very manageable.

If we take today's 120Hz EVF update and apply it to a different situation, shooting at an airshow at a speeding Blue Angel fighter, F/A-18 Hornet which is 56' long, and travels as low as 50' at 120mph and as fast as 700 mph during the show, with you tracking it. Let us make these assumptions about that situation: 120Hz EVF camera with 400mm lens and 1.4X teleconvertor, Blue Angel passing at 200' at 350 mph and with climb rate potential up to 30000 ft/min. On the web there is a photo taken by an amateur photographer of the Blue Angels flying over SF Bay
Golden Gate Bridge during an air show practice, https://www.aol.com …den-gate-bridge/20981478/ (external link)

and he stated

"he used a full-frame Sony a7 with 70-400mm lens, which he typically uses to photograph landscapes and is a tricky camera to use for high-speed action.

'During Thursday's practices they made numerous passes over the bridge in different positions,' he explained.

Lt. Daniel, the Blue Angels' public affairs officer, said she consulted with expert colleagues who estimated that the jet seen in the photo would have been flying at an approximate altitude of 600 feet at the moment the photo was taken and traveling at a speed of about 300 knots, or 350 mph. Both of those figures illustrate how difficult a feat it is to capture a perfect photo of a passing jet using a static camera position.

At 350mph, the F/A-18 has moved at 30800 ft/min horizontally, and travelled 51 inches within the space of a single 120 Hz EVF update...it is out of position in reality from where you see it in your frame
At a max climb rate, the F/A-18 has moved at 26400 ft/min vertically, and travelled 50 inches within the space of a single 120 Hz EVF update...it is out of position in reality from where you see it in your frame.
IOW the F/A is out of viewfinder position by about one-tench its full length whether travelling horizontally or climbing during an airshow if you were tracking it to compose the shot with an A9. With a 60Hz EVF refresh rate, the errors are doubled, about a 9' error! No wonder why the photographer, shooting with an A7, commented,
" 'Due to the ... approach speeds, there's a fair bit of luck involved trying to catch a perfectly centered shot.'""

The luck of the shot was both the EVF lag, and the fact that shutter lag even when the A7 is prefocused and the photographer has his finger half pressing the shutter button is 0.023 second. Of course, even an optical viewfinder suffers from shutter lag, but at least in viewing with positional accuracy one can make appropriate allowances for shutter lag.


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gjl711
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Feb 11, 2019 09:53 |  #124

Wilt wrote in post #18809010 (external link)
...
At 350mph, the F/A-18 has moved at 30800 ft/min horizontally, and travelled 51' within the space of a single 120 Hz EVF update...it is out of position in reality from where you see it in your frame
At a max climb rate, the F/A-18 has moved at 26400 ft/min vertically, and travelled 50' within the space of a single 120 Hz EVF update...it is out of position in reality from where you see it in your frame.
IOW the F/A is out of viewfinder position by virtually its full length whether travelling horizontally or climbing during an airshow if you were tracking it to compose the shot with an A9. No wonder why the photographer, shooting with an A7, commented,
" 'Due to the ... approach speeds, there's a fair bit of luck involved trying to catch a perfectly centered shot.'""

I think your off by a factor of 10. At 350mph, it's 514fts. With a 120mHZ refresh rate, it's 4.2 feet per refresh cycle not 50 unless I really screwed up my math. :).


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Post edited over 2 years ago by Wilt. (4 edits in all)
     
Feb 11, 2019 10:16 as a reply to  @ gjl711's post |  #125

Fortunately the spreadsheet that I created for the computations had not yet been closed, so I could check the computations. My error was in using the term 'feet' when the distance was actually 'inches' :oops: the computation was correct but I 'misspoke'.

350mph * (5280/60) = 30800 ft/min
30800 ft/min * (1/60) = 513 ft/sec
513 ft/sec * 12 = 6160 in/sec
Single frame EVF update error = 51 inches

I corrected post 123 to suit.


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Charlie
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Feb 11, 2019 10:16 |  #126

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18807053 (external link)
That would make sense if you shoot every kind of situation ever shot by a photographer, but is that really the case?

Even today, the flagship mirrorless, the A9, doesn't quite nail shots that DSLR phase detect AF can. It is close, but even with the most recent firmware that improves some things, it isn't there quite yet. The A9II might change things and even exceed any DSLR, who knows.

However you mention only Canon, and currently there are MANY things their mirrorless cannot capture well (mostly motion-based objects/scenarios). They are their infancy though so that is understandable. Stills of landscapes, portraits, etc, come with other complications but nothing a mirrorless cannot really handle provided it has a good DR sensor, along with good quality noise management, and finally good very low light AF.

In a few years, all these discussions will be moot, all mirrorless will do what DSLRs do today, and better. My M50 (and the EOS R itself) betters every single one of my DSLRs past and present, even the 1DX2 I don't own, in one particular AF scenario. ;)

I'm confident that even the 1Dx's cant keep up with the A9, it's simply a different beast. After using it for a few months now, I'm a big believer of the stacked sensor tech, definitely the way of the future.

stack sensor explained



once the A9 locks, there's no blinking effect of DSLR's or conventional mirrorless. Uninterrupted AF lock and capture.

While I'm sure DSLR's can capture a sequence of quick moving subjects, the A9 can as well without breaking a sweat. 5 images in between two images (a lot more in the full sequence). The nicest thing about this tech is that you can abuse the shutter without the physical aspect of it wearing out, no mechanical movement.


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Feb 11, 2019 10:32 |  #127

Choderboy wrote in post #18808548 (external link)
I believe it is Canon just hiding the blackout. Instead of a blackout, you get a quick frame inserted. It's bad as it fools you into thinking you are looking at the world but you are looking at the world a moment ago. There are lots of videos on youtube showing it. If you are tracking something moving it fools you into stopping panning, then you have to catch up. EOS-R blackout search finds a lot of talk and videos.

"shutter stutter" :)

most mirrorless have that issue, some less than others.

the latest A7's have less when shootingn 8fps, nearly dslr like in that regard.


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Feb 11, 2019 10:39 |  #128

Wilt wrote in post #18809025 (external link)
Fortunately the spreadsheet that I created for the computations had not yet been closed, so I could check the computations. Yes, the order of magnitude error was caused in the conversion to inches/sec, with * rather than / in the equation :oops:

350mph * (5280/60) = 30800 ft/min
30800 ft/min * (1/60) = 513 ft/sec
513 ft/sec * (1/12) = 42.7 in/sec
Single EFF update error = 0.35"

Sometimes it's easier to DuckDuckGo a converter and just plug in the number. :):):)
513fps is 6160ips


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Post edited over 2 years ago by TeamSpeed. (2 edits in all)
     
Feb 11, 2019 10:53 as a reply to  @ Charlie's post |  #129

Again I am not discussing Sony. It is great the A9 is so capable. We are discussing EOS R (or Canon mirrorless in general) and cell phones. I only briefly brought up the A9 due to someone having one here in the discussions. Also there are other accounts that the A9 has some issues with some action, so it just depends on which Google results you want to win a point of discussion. ;)

I am not sure how a running toddler in the open space is really a testimony of anything amidst the discussion of 10 people on a court all running and milling around with their fast breaks and launches into the air, while tracking just one player, but that is cool nonetheless.

Like I said, I seriously considered the move over but now want to see what comes out from Canon next.


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Feb 11, 2019 13:12 as a reply to  @ Charlie's post |  #130

Shutter stutter is the new winner!


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Feb 11, 2019 13:31 |  #131

Croasdail wrote in post #18808973 (external link)
Interesting. Don't have an R so I have no idea how in practice it is a real issue. You would have to have a crazy fast subject for it to change direction enough in a half second or what ever it really is for it to really impact tracking. Just me, but my solution for the issue would to be just to shoot a little looser - back out 10 to 20%. The R is a 30 mpx camera, right? So lets say you are shooting 20 percent looser to compensate for the delay in response, that would give you the same as shooting with a 24 mpx sensor after cropping. That is still a lot of resolution and you've created a buffer for change in direction. In my experience it shouldn't keep you from getting the shot..... that said, you have a 30 mpx camera, you would like to be able to use them all... so I get the annoyance.

The flip side to that, is the two events I shot this weekend, I rarely chipped after getting my initial setting dialed in. And I've usually done that before the event starts. It's kind of funny - one of the events I shot was on TV - so my wife watched from home. Evidently I was in the background of the a lot coverage, and my wife asked me when I got home if I ever lower my camera from my eye. Getting real time images in my viewfinder has all be erased the need to chimp, and I can keep the camera at the ready more often. So its a give and take thing. Maybe you loose a fraction of a second between frames, but you gain not needing to chimp.

Each has its nuances you learn to shoot around. I'll have to play with the R sometime to see what it really is like. I have the feeling it is a lot like shooting the original 5D or 20D back in the day... but with the advantage of full frame focus and meeting coverage. Maybe kinda nostalgic.... but then again we got great images from too.... we thought the Mk IIn was the bees knees for a long time.

I think Zach Sutton summed it up in a Lens rental Blog:
Secondly, the no blackout shooting system within the Canon EOS R is more frustrating than useful. If you’ve used the Sony a9, you may have fallen in love with the no blackout shooting, where you’re able to shoot continuously without your viewfinder ever being obstructed. Sony’s solution was to just make a black box indication system to let you know you’ve taken a photo. Canon’s solution – briefly freezing the image within the OLED viewfinder, obstructing your shooting in the process. While this can (and hopefully, will) be fixed with a firmware update, one hopes it comes sooner rather than later.


It's the misleading aspect I find frustrating. If it was a blackout, I think I could get used to following the subject and be ready when the view returned.
If someone walks in front of you while taking a photo it's just like a blackout but it isn't misleading. You can't see anything but as soon as you can see something you know it's real.
If a camera had a function to freeze the view when it detected someone or something blocking your view, I would be straight into the manual or menu to try to disable it as I would also classify it as 'more frustrating than useful'.


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Feb 11, 2019 15:05 as a reply to  @ gjl711's post |  #132

You apparently saw my post in evolution, and even before you found and posted my error of '42.7 in/sec' I had updated post 125 to reflect 6160ips


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Feb 11, 2019 15:53 |  #133

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18809044 (external link)
Again I am not discussing Sony. It is great the A9 is so capable. We are discussing EOS R (or Canon mirrorless in general) and cell phones. I only briefly brought up the A9 due to someone having one here in the discussions. Also there are other accounts that the A9 has some issues with some action, so it just depends on which Google results you want to win a point of discussion. ;)

I am not sure how a running toddler in the open space is really a testimony of anything amidst the discussion of 10 people on a court all running and milling around with their fast breaks and launches into the air, while tracking just one player, but that is cool nonetheless.

Like I said, I seriously considered the move over but now want to see what comes out from Canon next.

it's somewhat circular and related

Cell phones can have a stacked sensor
https://www.sony.net …201702/17-013E/index.html (external link)

you can bet Canon is scheming for one right now, the Sony A9 and Fuji X-T3 are the larger stacked sensors. Nikon will probably buy sony sensors when they have a capable chipset to handle it.


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