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Thread started 22 Mar 2006 (Wednesday) 13:09
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Canon TS-E24mm f/3.5L

 
OL9245
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Oct 16, 2008 05:46 |  #91

Lester Wareham wrote in post #6504698 (external link)
An AF detect is not going to help doing tilt focus much, you are trying to set the angle of the plane of focus a total different prospect to a normal focus operation on a few AF points.

Presumably live view would help a lot with this, anyone tried that?

I've just done a test to check (24 TSE on 5D).
The "manual-AF" (is it to be called AF-assisted manual focus :)?) works fine with shift (up to half way, but not more) or tilt (full range). It may work with shift and tilt but not always. When AF stops working on a given point, I still can focus on a brighter point. I got similar results with the lens rotated horizontal or vertical.

The range of workable AF v/s shift and tilt seemed to be due to AF limitations itself, rather than intrinsic optical properties of the tilted or shifted lens.

Of course I can only focus on a point where an AF colimator is (mostly at the center), which limits the help I can get from it. Was it what you wanted to point out?


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Lester ­ Wareham
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Oct 16, 2008 06:44 |  #92

OL9245 wrote in post #6505293 (external link)
Of course I can only focus on a point where an AF colimator is (mostly at the center), which limits the help I can get from it. Was it what you wanted to point out?

Yes it was. Of course no obstacle to using the shift, but good to know people have proved it.

Of course another way with the tilt is to guess or measure the angles and do the sums, set the lens tilt on that, then you could just focus one point of the tilted plane and bingo the rest of the plane should about right.

Sounds a little on the unwieldy side however....


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Oct 17, 2008 11:06 |  #93

I'm very interested to know how you can correct verticals on a building with such a small amount of shift. I understand that you are effectively shifting the viewpoint to half way up the building, but how is that achieved with just a small shift?

If you are shifting the lens up by no more than 11mm, why is that not the same as lifting the camera up by 11mm? Obviously it isn't the same, but I don't know why!

Is the shift at the lens multiplied by some factor that accounts for the difference in distance between the lens and subject, and the lens and sensor?

Mike

:-)


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OL9245
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Oct 17, 2008 11:20 |  #94

Mike-DT6 wrote in post #6512551 (external link)
I'm very interested to know how you can correct verticals on a building with such a small amount of shift. I understand that you are effectively shifting the viewpoint to half way up the building, but how is that achieved with just a small shift?

If you are shifting the lens up by no more than 11mm, why is that not the same as lifting the camera up by 11mm? Obviously it isn't the same, but I don't know why!

Is the shift at the lens multiplied by some factor that accounts for the difference in distance between the lens and subject, and the lens and sensor?

Mike

:-)

to understand how shif lens works, you have to figure out the lens is designed for a sensor of 46x58 mm (not 24x36mm). so you can take virtually a very large image of what you see. But you have a sensor of only 24x36 mm. The shift allows you to position the sensor at any place within the workable area of 46x58 mm.

The result is virtually the same as if you had this huge sensor, and you cropped the resulting image in photoshop. For architecture photogaphy, this allow you to position your camera with the sensor plane parrallel to the building. This eliminates perspective distorsion. On the virual huge image, this settings results in having the top half of the image with the building on it, and the bottom half with the street, and even your shoes. Of course you will shift the lens so that the sensor will catch the building, and crop the street.


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Mike-DT6
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Oct 17, 2008 11:39 |  #95

Thanks for your reply OL :-)

I realized that there is a large image circle, but I didn't understand how you could effectively place the forward viewpoint half way up a tall building with only a small shift. I expect all will become clear when I get to try it out in practice!

Mike

:-)


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OL9245
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Oct 17, 2008 12:21 |  #96

Mike-DT6 wrote in post #6512703 (external link)
Thanks for your reply OL :-)

I realized that there is a large image circle, but I didn't understand how you could effectively place the forward viewpoint half way up a tall building with only a small shift. I expect all will become clear when I get to try it out in practice!

Mike

:-)

in breif, this is just as if you shoot with a wider zoom lens, and you crop. The wider lens may be wide enough to contain the entire building in the halp part of the image. In this case, you can take the imahe with the film plane parralel to the building.


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Oct 17, 2008 13:10 |  #97

Mike-DT6 wrote in post #6512703 (external link)
Thanks for your reply OL :-)

I realized that there is a large image circle, but I didn't understand how you could effectively place the forward viewpoint half way up a tall building with only a small shift. I expect all will become clear when I get to try it out in practice!

Mike

:-)

You can shift say 11mm of a 24mm high frame for FF in landscape orientation.

So if the building is 60 ft height and with your camera leveled and no shift you have placed your tripod so you can see the first 35 ft in the top half of your frame, just like with an ordinary 24mm.

All all you need to do is add 8.6mm of sift and bingo you can see the whole height of the building but with the verticals parallel.

Calculation:

Half frame height = 12mm
Building height out of view before shift = 60-35 = 25 ft
Shift required to bring top of building in line with top edge of frame

= 25/35*12 = 8.6mm

Don't forget, movement of the sensor or lens is translated to the subject (objective) by similar triangles based on the magnification, here the magnification is

0.012/35*3.28=0.001125​X

ie movement at the lens is magnified by 889X at the subject.

Never used the lens but I am sure that is right. I love it when a plan comes together!


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Oct 17, 2008 14:18 |  #98

Thank you both.

Yes, I see now. I suppose it was pretty obvious after all! :lol:

I'm on the lookout for a 24mm now. Definitely something I find the need for with my buildings photographs, plus the tilt capability would be great for landscape depth of field manipulation.

I can't decide whether I need a 5D next, or one of these lenses!

Mike

:-)


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Lester ­ Wareham
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Oct 17, 2008 14:49 |  #99

Mike-DT6 wrote in post #6513565 (external link)
Thank you both.

Yes, I see now. I suppose it was pretty obvious after all! :lol:

I'm on the lookout for a 24mm now. Definitely something I find the need for with my buildings photographs, plus the tilt capability would be great for landscape depth of field manipulation.

I can't decide whether I need a 5D next, or one of these lenses!

Mike

:-)

Mike I can assure you, you desperately need both!

That is the POTN way!. :)


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Oct 17, 2008 14:55 |  #100

Yes, typical isn't it? :lol: I'm currently watching twelve 5Ds on eBay, to see what is happening with the prices, especially now that the MkII version is coming out. Might need to leave that for a couple more months yet, to give the MkII (and the recession) a chance to take its toll on prices.

The tilt-shift is the kind of thing I might have to buy on the spur of the moment if something comes up unexpectedly!

Mike

:-)


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Oct 20, 2008 00:22 |  #101

Wilt wrote in post #4865830 (external link)
You should do your metering with an unshifted/untilted lens,

Could someone please explain why?

My thinking is that the camera should be able to meter based on the image it sees, tilted, shifted or not.

Andrew (who will be renting a 24mm TS-E next week...)


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OL9245
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Oct 20, 2008 03:29 |  #102

TheGaffer wrote in post #6526383 (external link)
Could someone please explain why?

My thinking is that the camera should be able to meter based on the image it sees, tilted, shifted or not.

Andrew (who will be renting a 24mm TS-E next week...)

I dont know the theory behind that. I think this is due to the details of the geometry of the meter cell inside the body. as soon as you shift the lens, the meter gets crazy. you cannot do this mistake twice. The error is realy huge.


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Oct 20, 2008 09:12 as a reply to  @ OL9245's post |  #103

the meter can go crazy. It doesn't always though. But I shoot panos with mine, so because I'll be stitching later, the frames NEED to be the same, so I meter at the middle (which I need anyway), flip it to M, then fire off the 3 shots.

FYI, I'll be selling my 24mm TS-E soon. PM me if you're interested. It's basically brand new.


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Nov 08, 2008 13:01 as a reply to  @ jacobsen1's post |  #104

Here is a sample with 3 degrees of tilt - hand held.

Using my rough and ready chart, I am able to determine pretty well what tilt angle I can dial in for my desired effect. So I tilt the lens, then focus again through the viewfinder. It's a pretty good way of using the TS-E lenses when walking around without a tripod.


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Lester ­ Wareham
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Nov 08, 2008 13:18 |  #105

Very nice.

I was wondering if you could just use the maths to apply the tilt, looks like you can. Was this just focus by eye or does the focus confirm light help any?


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