Odd color management phenomena

Let me just preface this with the fact that this phenomena just started after the last few Windows updates.

If I have the computer load my calibration profile (icm) pictures look fine in Adobe software, but have that desaturated look to them when viewed in MS Photo, Fastone Image Viewer, and as my desktop wallpaper. However, if I just pick the default sRGB profile, pictures look right across all apps. It seems to not like something about the calibration profiles that Spyder Pro 5 is generating.

Any thoughts on solutions?

Is your Spyder creating a V2 or V4 profile?

(In Preferences > Advanced Settings)

Looks like by default it is at 2.0.

Might be worth trying it at 4.0 and see if that makes a difference. Thanks for the suggestion.

Tried doing a re-calibration at v4.0 and just like the v2.0 the images look different between Adobe and non-Adobe software. When I switched back to a simple sRGB profile, things matched again. Kind of defeats the point of calibrating a monitor if I have to resort to a generic sRGB profile anyway. I know that laptop monitors aren't the easiest and that this one in particular isn't going to win any awards for sRGB coverage, but up until last week or so I was using a calibrated profile that I created and everything was matching. My OCD wants me to do a backup and restore of the laptop to see if that would help, but my sensible side says that it isn't a huge deal as long as my desktop is good to go (which it is). Ah well, maybe the next Windows update will undo whatever this one did. lol.

I think you're missing the point. The purpose of monitor calibration is to make your photos in Photoshop match their pro lab prints.
Has your calibration achieved that?

So then it is normal to have an image more saturated in an Adobe environment and have it display as a jpeg differently?
Attached is a snip I took when I had the two windows open side by side. Yes, the image is way over saturated as I was trying to make the desaturation more obvious.

If this is in fact normal behavior, how can I accurately make adjustments in Lightroom and/or Photoshop and know what it is going to look like when exported? Seems like a guessing game.

So for giggles, I uploaded an image that looks good in Photoshop/Lightroom but looks noticeably different in Windows Photo and Fastone Imageviewer to my SmugMug account and viewed it through my browser (Chrome) and it looks correct. So why oh why do my exported jpegs look so crappy when viewed through supposedly color managed software?

I'm not sure what you don't understand here. Windows viewer isn't colour-managed. Only use Bridge for browsing your photos.

Please answer the question - does Photoshop match your pro lab prints?

To answer your question, yes, my prints match what I see in Lightroom/Photoshop.

My question to you: When you edit an image and save it, does it look the same when opened in Photoshop as it does in other non-Adobe software?

Btw, I thought that Windows Photo was in fact color managed.

dan.k78 wrote in post #18831108
My question to you: When you edit an image and save it, does it look the same when opened in Photoshop as it does in other non-Adobe software?

If it is another raw editor like DxO, Capture1 or even my host of old programs, then yes. In Windows Photo Viewer, no, but I'm on W7 and the biggest difference is contrast rather than color. Who know WTF it is doing or why ot would add contrast - I guess MS thinks it will make the 'average' photo look better.

No, Windows Viewer has never been colour-managed.

What can sometimes add confusion to interpreting this kind of thing is that some images will look "correct" while others will not, when compared in the same set of viewers or apps. Many times, if an application is not color managed (meaning it does not look for or interpret an embedded color profile tag) it will ASSUME that the RGB numbers in the file are meant to represent sRGB color values - if your file is indeed in sRGB (you converted it to sRGB in PS or some other application or step in your workflow) then it will appear "correct" in a non-color-managed environment that assumes sRGB; if your image is not in sRGB (say ProPhoto as an extreme example) then it will look wrong in non color-managed environments that assume sRGB, while it will look correct in color-managed environments like PS. Other times, the application will not assume sRGB, but will send the RGB numbers to the display directly - if your display is set with an sRGB or sRGB-like profile, then the sRGB numbers in the file will look "correct" - if the file is not sRGB, then it will not look correct. This inconsistency in how images are displayed has to do with the color numbers in the file - if they are meant for sRGB, they will appear consistent across apps that are displayed with an sRGB display, regardless of whether or not the app is color-managed; conversely, if the RGB numbers in your file are not sRGB, then the differences in how the image is displayed across apps can get inconsistently interpreted.

One way to infer whether an application is color-managed is to save an image in ProPhoto (open a raw file in your raw converter and convert it into ProPhoto and save) and then open it in several different applications - it will look terrible (desaturated, color shifted) in non color-managed applications that ignore the embedded ProPhoto tag (remember to embed the tag!) and it will look correct in color-managed applications that interpret the ProPhoto tag and display the colors and gamma correctly. In this exercise, you do not need to worry about saving it as a huge 16-bit TIFF, just save it as a JPEG - you are not going to be worrying about banding and all of that jazz that gives people fits when trying to save a ProPhoto file in an 8bit file format, you just want a throw-away test image encoded in ProPhoto RGB numbers that will show you the difference between non color-managed and color-managed viewing environments. You could use an AdobeRGB image too, it is just that the differences may not be as noticeable, especially if you use a larger gamut display and the application sends RGB numbers to the display in the display color space.

You can also save one JPEG with the "Embed Color Profile" check box enabled, and a second version without the check box enabled and see how including the tag for the ProPhoto color space changes how the file is rendered in each application.

All of this has nothing to do with calibrating and profiling your display, or whether your display matches your prints. This is just about whether or not color is displayed consistently across your workflow, independent of whether or not it is displayed accurately for your output device.

Kirk

Thanks for such a detailed response!

So basically my monitor calibration has no effect on how images display from application to application? If that is in fact the case, I'm still not understanding how I can edit a raw image in Lightroom, export it with an embedded srgb color-space, open it in two programs that are color managed (Photoshop and FastOne Imageviewer) and see different results.

dan.k78 wrote in post #18831448
Thanks for such a detailed response!

So basically my monitor calibration has no effect on how images display from application to application? If that is in fact the case, I'm still not understanding how I can edit a raw image in Lightroom, export it with an embedded srgb color-space, open it in two programs that are color managed (Photoshop and FastOne Imageviewer) and see different results.

No, your display profile will ultimately affect the way color is rendered - the issue is how that profile is being used, or not used, and how each application interprets (or disregards) the color profile information embedded in the file it is trying to display. If this is a Windows-specific bug or "feature" then that is above my pay grade as a Mac user. I have never used Fastone so I have no knowledge of its capabilities or color management.

Did you try the experiment I proposed? See how it works - in other words, do not use an sRGB image, use a ProPhoto image with the color profile tag embedded in it and see what you get.

Kirk

So I took a raw image, converted the profile to profoto and saved it. I then opened it up in FastOne and when color management was enabled it looked okay, but not the same as what I saw in Photoshop. When I turned off the color management and opened it, it definitely looked very desaturated and crunchy. This tells me that the program (FastOne) is in-fact recognizing and trying to do something with color space, however it just doesn't seem to get it right.

The weird thing is that the image displays properly in all Adobe software and internet browser (Chrome), but not in a supposedly color managed piece of software like FastOne. Also, all of this is only happening on my laptop. If I do all these things on my desktop or even my crappy work computer, all images show up consistent across the board.