Looking for New Camera Body

Inspeqtor wrote in post #18923613
Thank you John

Yes that is a good deal, but.... I really do not need those lenses as I have those two focal lengths already more than covered with what I already own.

Just sell those lenses, reducing your price on the 80D. I am quite sure if you put $75 and $100 on the lenses on the forum, they will sell, and you will have reduced your total price of just the 80D down to $575 (EDIT: no, the answer isn't $525, you have to add back in payment and ship costs of $25-50 ). One fact that is in your favor is that the 55-250 STM is sharper on the M series than the 55-200 M lens, so that helps the sale.

An 80D for that price is a no-brainer, it would be an outstanding deal.

As to the lag in the M50, the only lag there is in the EVF is when you take the shot. You get a static shot of what the sensor last saw as it takes the shot. Also, if you do a burst, you will see blackout during the burst. However as you are watching your subject material, the lag of the optical scene to hit the sensor and sent to the EVF is quite small, probably around the 20-30 millisec timeframe.

The M series is the only camera series in the Canon APS-C eco system where there is a 3rd party accessory that almost eliminates all of the 1.6 crop factor and gains you an extra stop of light with your EF lenses. This means the M series, with this adapter, will provide a very, very similar image to that of a FF. My Sigma 50mm f1.4 lens behaves like a 55mm f1.2 lens on my M50.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18923723
Just sell those lenses, reducing your price on the 80D. I am quite sure if you put $75 and $100 on the lenses on the forum, they will sell, and you will have reduced your total price of just the 80D down to $575. One fact that is in your favor is that the 55-250 STM is sharper on the M series than the 55-200 M lens, so that helps the sale.

My math ends better at $525 from your numbers!

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18923723
An 80D for that price is a no-brainer, it would be an outstanding deal.

Yes it is!

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18923723
As to the lag in the M50, the only lag there is in the EVF is when you take the shot. You get a static shot of what the sensor last saw as it takes the shot. Also, if you do a burst, you will see blackout during the burst. However as you are watching your subject material, the lag of the optical scene to hit the sensor and sent to the EVF is quite small, probably around the 20-30 millisec timeframe.

The M series is the only camera series in the Canon APS-C eco system where there is a 3rd party accessory that almost eliminates all of the 1.6 crop factor and gains you an extra stop of light with your EF lenses. This means the M series, with this adapter, will provide a very, very similar image to that of a FF. My Sigma 50mm f1.4 lens behaves like a 55mm f1.2 lens on my M50.

I am going back and forth now... I like the M50 because I love the swivel LCD screen, but I am not sure how well my 150-500 would feel on the M50. Do you use a larger EF or EF-S lens on your M50?

With the 15% discount I could get from Canon because they can no longer repair my 60D either a new 80D or even 90D also sounds good.

Inspeqtor wrote in post #18923613
Thank you John

Yes that is a good deal, but.... I really do not need those lenses as I have those two focal lengths already more than covered with what I already own.

So you sell the lenses and thus reduce your net cost.

John from PA wrote in post #18923885

Inspeqtor wrote in post #18923613
Thank you John

Yes that is a good deal, but.... I really do not need those lenses as I have those two focal lengths already more than covered with what I already own.

So you sell the lenses and thus reduce your net cost.

Yes as TeamSpeed suggested.... I am considering that possibility. Buy an "older lens" (how many years before Canon stops fixing the 80D?) or buy a new lens with longer life for me?

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18923723
Just sell those lenses, reducing your price on the 80D. I am quite sure if you put $75 and $100 on the lenses on the forum, they will sell, and you will have reduced your total price of just the 80D down to $575.

Inspeqtor wrote in post #18923884
My math ends better at $525 from your numbers!

Recheck your math...TeamSpeed was correct. $700 - $175 = $575. [Edited: $525 is correct and no excuse except jet lag from a 12 hour flight]

Inspeqtor wrote in post #18923884
With the 15% discount I could get from Canon because they can no longer repair my 60D either a new 80D or even 90D also sounds good.

The Canon store now shows a new 80D body at $1000 so 15% off brings you down to $850.

The 90D body release price is $1200 so 15% off brings that down to $1020.

Just my opinion, you won't likely see an abundance of refurb 90D's until after the holidays and that $1200 body only price also will hold until after the holidays. I also think that Canon wants to sell 90D's and thus have moved, or will move, all their 80D stock to refurb status at attractive pricing to get rid of them.

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #18923637
However, the lag in the EVF is real, which is why mirrorless is not yet ready for high paced action photography.

Levina I'm not really understanding here, can you describe the lag please?
do you mean like the frame update rate isn't fast enough so the viewfinder view isn't updated quick enough? or is what you see not quite in sync with real-time?

Inspeqtor wrote in post #18923884
Do you use a larger EF or EF-S lens on your M50?

closest I've used to what you describe is my 100-400mm with the M5, and really - it feels odd.

I'm sure if you only had one body you'd get used to it eventually, but for me the M-series is best used with smaller lenses.
On holiday overseas recently I would often carry the M5 with 18-150mm rather than lug around the 1Dx, but if weight were no option the M5 would stay at home...

joeseph wrote in post #18923897
Levina I'm not really understanding here, can you describe the lag please?
do you mean like the frame update rate isn't fast enough so the viewfinder view isn't updated quick enough? or is what you see not quite in sync with real-time?

joeseph, when you look through an optical viewfinder you see what the lens is seeing, as it sees it, meaning at the exact same instant of time. In contrast, electronic viewfinders have a lag due to the fact that the image you see is processed and that processing takes time. The better the electronics doing that processing, the shorter the time.

Another lag comes from the electronic viewfinder being black when the camera is powered down, and a relatively long power up time interval. Cameras I've examined in the store take probably a 1/2 second or so before the screen shows the image. The optical finder is of course always "on".

You have payment fees and shipping costs, thus my answer versus yours.

Many people are telling you that it is silly to try to use that combo of 150-600 with an M series, but I find that I have to hold the lens first and foremost with any body I put on it, so it doesn't matter to me if it is my 5d4 or a small mirrorless, either camera is just along for the ride. My right hand has to operate the body the same regardless of the lens on it, my left hand is the one that has more or less work depending on the lens.

I use all my lenses with the M, but also have a series of M lenses for travel purposes when I want to go light. My biggest issue are the small buttons, I have repurposed many of the buttons, but they are tiny and hard to find sometimes. I would suggest trying one at a best buy or Target beforehand.

John from PA wrote in post #18923892
Recheck your math...TeamSpeed was correct. $700 - $175 = $575.

Someone needs a calculator...

DreDaze wrote in post #18924017
Someone needs a calculator...

Yeah, I did a double take on that too.

I already took about $50 out of the total sale for payment fees and shipping, probably a bit high actually, it most likely would only be about $25 total to ship two small light lenses and fees wouldn't be much, but I err on the side of caution when I buy and sell myself. Many forget there are fees and shipping, and packing material etc that has to come out of the total sale of goods, when they do this buy/sell cycle to upgrade.

DreDaze wrote in post #18924017
Someone needs a calculator...

Actually I need some sleep; just got home from 12 hours of flying!

John from PA wrote in post #18923904
joeseph, when you look through an optical viewfinder you see what the lens is seeing, as it sees it, meaning at the exact same instant of time. In contrast, electronic viewfinders have a lag due to the fact that the image you see is processed and that processing takes time. The better the electronics doing that processing, the shorter the time.

Another lag comes from the electronic viewfinder being black when the camera is powered down, and a relatively long power up time interval. Cameras I've examined in the store take probably a 1/2 second or so before the screen shows the image. The optical finder is of course always "on".

thanks - I'd not really noticed lag on the M5 EVF, having said that I played with it last night panning around the room & the frame refresh in the viewfinder sometimes "stuttered" as I was panning and mostly didn't. Tried turning IS off & it didn't make any difference so not sure why it does this. Had another play this morning and it's fine so must just be something it does in very low light situations.

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #18923637
Well, there are two sides to the EVF. It has more functionality than an optical viewfinder. A lot of people who shoot with mirrorless cameras now, say they would never want to go back to an optical viewfinder. So maybe it IS just something to get used to, you know?

However, the lag in the EVF is real, which is why mirrorless is not yet ready for high paced action photography. But if you don't shoot that, mirrorless could definitely be an option. So go to a store and look at mirrorless cameras and see for yourself. If the store doesn't have the mirrorless camera that you are interested in, look at another, like the EOS R or EOS RP. Or one of the Sony's in the same price range.

Brick and mortar stores are disappearing everywhere, at an alarming rate. Same here. And not just camera stores. The world is changing, my friend.

Hi Levina,

good points on evf's. I've been shooting mirrorless Fuji's and a leica Q. the evf's have significantly improved - year after year. once upon a time, I had the Canon M3 and what lenses canon offered (not much) - its EF/EF-S to EF-M adapter was (imho) an awkward adaptive arrangement - which I never used beyond the ef-s 24mm and ef 40mm and maybe the 50/1.8 stm. also, the evf - on the Canon M3 - was an external accessory which one mounted to the hotshoe (meh?). I sold the ef-m system a couple years ago - after I had added Fujifilm bodies. haven't missed it.

meanwhile, in general, evf's allow one to compose accurately. the effects on one's composed image from changes in ISO, aperture and shutter speed (white balance, etc.) appear BEFORE taking the shot in the EVF. also, menus and info normally found on the LCD appear in the EVF (don't have to remove your eye from the finder - to adjust settings). finally, one can review an image - after the shot - without chimping on the rear LCD - as the image can be viewed in the EVF. modern Leicas are now available with no rear LCD. definitely more $ for less clutter. many photogs love them - though group gropes around the EVF get crowded - as multiple eyeballs at the EVF are a bit cozy/crowded. meanwhile - on good bodies - the lag time has been significantly reduced - to the point of it no longer being much of an issue - as it was in the initial EVF's.

combine EVF performance with IBIS and there are real technology benefits to modern mirrorless bodies. in my mind, the current - first generation - CaNikons are basically beta-ware. the Canon R bodies still lack IBIS. more and more, I use modern and vintage manual focus glass (adapted or native zeiss, voigtlanders, legacy nikkors, etc.). so I view IBIS as more than a nice option, especially combined with a good evf.

good luck to the OP. as a former admirer of the 60D (I went through 2 of them), I'll watch the 90D for about 6 months and probably add one - and sell the 7D2 - which looks like it's being fazed out.

Dale

Inspeqtor wrote in post #18923693
Do you know what the more functionality is??

Charles, an electronic viewfinder works very differently from an optical viewfinder. As John above explained, when you are looking through an optical viewfinder in a DSRL you are basically looking straight trough the lens and thus seeing the world as it is, in real time. The actual image is reflected in the mirror but that happens instantaneously, so you are seeing the world one-on-one.

An electronic viewfinder shows you a projection of the scene. It's like looking at a mini tv screen as it were. And it shows you the image that you are about to take fully processed by the camera. That means you can see if it will be exposed correctly with the present settings. It also means you have a histogram. On a DSLR this information can only be obtained after the image has been taken. With a mirrorless camera the EVF shows you this before you take the image.

And it has more benefits, like focus peaking, which is particularly handy for macro work.

And maybe there are more advantages, but I'm not really the one to tell you about EVFs as I have no real world experience with them. Except checking them out in the shop the other day.

joeseph wrote in post #18923897
Levina I'm not really understanding here, can you describe the lag please?
do you mean like the frame update rate isn't fast enough so the viewfinder view isn't updated quick enough? or is what you see not quite in sync with real-time?

Joeseph, I checked out three mirrorless cameras in the shop: an EOS R, an M50 and a Sony a7III. And I felt with all three EVFs that they weren't in sync with real time. They were all just a tiny bit lagging behind. Not much, sure, but quite noticeable.

daleg wrote in post #18924209
Hi Levina,

good points on evf's. I've been shooting mirrorless Fuji's and a leica Q. the evf's have significantly improved - year after year. once upon a time, I had the Canon M3 and what lenses canon offered (not much) - its EF/EF-S to EF-M adapter was (imho) an awkward adaptive arrangement - which I never used beyond the ef-s 24mm and ef 40mm and maybe the 50/1.8 stm. also, the evf - on the Canon M3 - was an external accessory which one mounted to the hotshoe (meh?). I sold the ef-m system a couple years ago - after I had added Fujifilm bodies. haven't missed it.

meanwhile, in general, evf's allow one to compose accurately. the effects on one's composed image from changes in ISO, aperture and shutter speed (white balance, etc.) appear BEFORE taking the shot in the EVF. also, menus and info normally found on the LCD appear in the EVF (don't have to remove your eye from the finder - to adjust settings). finally, one can review an image - after the shot - without chimping on the rear LCD - as the image can be viewed in the EVF. modern Leicas are now available with no rear LCD. definitely more $ for less clutter. many photogs love them - though group gropes around the EVF get crowded - as multiple eyeballs at the EVF are a bit cozy/crowded. meanwhile - on good bodies - the lag time has been significantly reduced - to the point of it no longer being much of an issue - as it was in the initial EVF's.

combine EVF performance with IBIS and there are real technology benefits to modern mirrorless bodies. in my mind, the current - first generation - CaNikons are basically beta-ware. the Canon R bodies still lack IBIS. more and more, I use modern and vintage manual focus glass (adapted or native zeiss, voigtlanders, legacy nikkors, etc.). so I view IBIS as more than a nice option, especially combined with a good evf.

good luck to the OP. as a former admirer of the 60D (I went through 2 of them), I'll watch the 90D for about 6 months and probably add one - and sell the 7D2 - which looks like it's being fazed out.

Dale

Hi Dale,

I'm sure EVFs have greatly improved over time and those that have used mirrorless cameras have seen those improvements can see the advancement. Of course. But all I can speak of is my own experience of looking through an EVF for the first time ever, a few weeks ago, in the shop. The lag in the EVF was unmistakeable. The cameras I tried out were the EOS R, Canon M50 and the Sony a7III and they all had it. And the projection in the EVFs itself was, I don't know, rather bad. Stuttery like. I was actually reminded of old VHS tapes. A world apart from an optical viewfinder with its real time clarity.

I'm sure one could get used to an EVF though. Especially since it does have some advantages over an OVF. But those advantages for me are substantially less important than the quality of the viewfinder itself. So I'm staying with DSRLs for now.