Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Guest
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Community Talk, Chatter & Stuff General Photography Talk 
Thread started 10 Sep 2019 (Tuesday) 14:55
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

The ethics of scanning old photographs

 
gjl711
Wait.. you can't unkill your own kill.
Avatar
57,733 posts
Likes: 4065
Joined Aug 2006
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
     
Sep 10, 2019 14:55 |  #1

I am the family archive and have been scanning old pictures and negatives for several years now. Recently I was handed a large stack of professionally taken portraits and kids sports shots. These are rather old, somewhere around 30~60 years old, some more. They are of kids (mostly family members but some team pictures as well), taken by some portrait studio or other professional photographer, but they are not watermarked nor identified in any other way.

Legally, I know that the photographer owns the copyright for 70 years post their death but in this case where there is no way to identify who that might be. The reason for the question is that many of the photos are at their life span. The colors are fading, the emulation is beginning to flake in spots and when you examine the photo under some magnification, you can see mold in spots and many surface scratches.

So, is it ethical to scan the photos? Your thoughts? To me it seems rather gray. I am not producing a derivative work but would copy exactly as is and restore if necessary. I would distribute the electronic images to several family members. I'm reasonable sure that the photos were not produced under a creative commons license agreement or work-made-for-hire agreement though I can't be sure as I have no idea who produced the originals. What would you do?


Not sure why, but call me JJ.
I used to hate math but then I realised decimals have a point.
.
::Flickr:: (external link)
::Gear::

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Trvlr323
Goldmember
Avatar
3,318 posts
Likes: 1091
Joined Apr 2007
     
Sep 10, 2019 17:10 |  #2

Of course we can't speak for the photographer but if you are scanning these images in the context of preserving them for the family archive and enjoyment of family members which was their intended use was I can hardly believe that a copyright holder would have a problem with that. I think he or she would be pleased to learn that an effort was being made toward their preservation.


Sometimes not taking a photograph can be as problematic as taking one. - Alex Webb

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
40,862 posts
Gallery: 116 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 8923
Joined May 2002
Location: Midwest
Post edited over 4 years ago by TeamSpeed. (5 edits in all)
     
Sep 10, 2019 17:17 |  #3

The copyright exists so that you don't financially benefit from someone else's work, they retain those rights to financially and socially reproduce as they see fit. Just like I am able to make copies of my DVDs so that when kids scratch them up, I can still watch the movies, you are allowed to make archive copies of someone else's photos. Neither of us are selling these reproductions, so we are covered under law.

Also, you may not be aware of this, but if these are old photos and there are no copyright watermarks etched onto the photos, they are basically considered public domain anyways.

Before the current Copyright Act became effective in 1978, publication of a work in the United States with a proper copyright notice conferred statutory copyright and commenced the copyright term. Publication of the work in the United States without a proper copyright notice placed the work in the public domain, with narrow exceptions. The same general rule continued, with somewhat broader exceptions, until March 1, 1989. Hence, for works published in the United States before 1978 (or, with more exceptions, before March 1, 1989), if there is no copyright notice, the work may well be in the public domain.

Also in relation to Fair Use, which is what covers my actions in the first paragraph.

Fair Use
--------------
Let’s briefly talk about fair use, which is a huge topic. Fair use is a gray area of the law and can be pretty confusing. It’s essentially a defense to copyright infringement, where you would show that there was no illegal infringement because it was a “fair use” of the work. The reason this area of the law is so murky is because it is up to a judge or jury to decide whether something is “fair use” each time there is a new lawsuit. There is no hard and fast rule on what you can legally copy because the only way we can truly “know” if it’s okay is for you to make copies of the photos, get sued and win. Not the ideal situation, right? The best we can do is put ourselves in the jury’s shoes and consider the same factors they would be considering if you were sued and used fair use as a defense.

These considerations include:
---------------
Whether you have the photographer’s permission
If your use is for “purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship or research”
If the purpose of the use is commercial or non-commercial in nature
Whether the nature of the work is highly creative or less creative
Whether your use will cause the creator or photographer to lose money

When it comes to copying, scanning or digitizing your own family photos, you are likely doing this for personal use only and not for commercial purposes (like if you were selling prints). The US Copyright Office has indicated that there are some circumstances where copying a photo may fall under “fair use.” However, this doesn’t mean that a copy shop or store is in the wrong if they refuse to make copies of your family photos. These stores are worried about violating copyright laws and many have policies of not copying old photos or those that “appear” to be covered by copyright protection without evidence that the person indeed has the copyright.


How to Legally Copy Family Photos
---------------
Ok, so I know you want to know – is it legal to make copies of your family photos? Well… it depends. So how can you get make or obtain legal copies of professional photos?

First off, you should contact the photographer or the copyright owner. The photographer will likely be more than happy to go over options for reproducing photos or they can give you a license for copying or making your own prints. With older photos, it can sometimes be tough to figure out who the copyright owner is. One option is to go to the Photographer Registry website in order to find out who the copyright owner is. If the photographer or copyright owner is deceased, the rights would have passed through the person’s will or through the estate rules. If the photographer is alive but no longer in business, you can see if they have transferred or sold the copyright to someone else.

Consider the issue of fair use if you cannot figure out who the copyright owner is, or if the photographer is out of business, or deceased. If your copying or scanning can be deemed “fair use,” this would be a defense to a claim of copyright infringement. A court would look at factors such as if you are transforming the work, if you are copying for a commercial reason, whether your copying would be detrimental to the photographer and other similar factors.

Basically, the law surrounding the copying or reuse of old photos is murky.

As a rule of thumb: try to first get permission from the copyright owner (likely the photographer). If you can’t find the photographer, try to find out who might own the copyright. If you still aren’t sure who the owner is, determine if your copying could fall under “fair use” as a lawful way to reproduce the photos. There are no hard and fast rules and every situation will be different. But this is a great general guide to get your started.

For this, again I see no reason this cannot be done, especially when it is to salvage old photos that might be destroyed and there is no way to obtain original copies from the original source, or even to know who the original source was.


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)
"Man only has 5 senses, and sometimes not even that, so if they define the world, the universe, the dimensions of existence, and spirituality with just these limited senses, their view of what-is and what-can-be is very myopic indeed and they are doomed, now and forever."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Croasdail
making stuff up
Avatar
8,134 posts
Gallery: 19 photos
Likes: 899
Joined Apr 2005
Location: North Carolina and Toronto
     
Sep 10, 2019 18:50 |  #4

Its for your own internal use, you already paid license to use these photos, and are simply making an archival copy..... all is good. So long as you don't redistribute.... all is good.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Road ­ Dog
Goldmember
Avatar
1,693 posts
Gallery: 365 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 3044
Joined Jul 2014
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
     
Sep 10, 2019 19:32 |  #5

I can't imagine anyone having a problem with doing that for archival purposes.

I've been doing something similar, although all I have to work with are negatives. I have to scan them and then invert them. It's actually an enjoyable process, and it's cool to see photos of my Grandfather when he was the ripe old age of 30.

Again, you're just doing it to preserve them for your family. I think it would border on the stunningly stupid for someone to take issue with that...


Just shut up and smile...
My Current Line-Up

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
gjl711
THREAD ­ STARTER
Wait.. you can't unkill your own kill.
Avatar
57,733 posts
Likes: 4065
Joined Aug 2006
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
     
Sep 10, 2019 19:55 |  #6

Road Dog wrote in post #18924744 (external link)
I can't imagine anyone having a problem with doing that for archival purposes.

I've been doing something similar, although all I have to work with are negatives. I have to scan them and then invert them. It's actually an enjoyable process, and it's cool to see photos of my Grandfather when he was the ripe old age of 30.

I have no problems with scanning my negatives and photos nor ones that were gifted to me from family members. So far I've done maybe 10,000 of those over the years. The pro ones are different though.

Road Dog wrote in post #18924744 (external link)
Again, you're just doing it to preserve them for your family. I think it would border on the stunningly stupid for someone to take issue with that...

Ya never know especially in these days of social media. I scan, give to a family member, they post to some social platform, someone who use to work at Peter Pan 40 years ago sees the image and remembers it and is looking for some $$$. The law can be incredibly stupid at times. :)


Not sure why, but call me JJ.
I used to hate math but then I realised decimals have a point.
.
::Flickr:: (external link)
::Gear::

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
gjl711
THREAD ­ STARTER
Wait.. you can't unkill your own kill.
Avatar
57,733 posts
Likes: 4065
Joined Aug 2006
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Post edited over 4 years ago by gjl711.
     
Sep 10, 2019 19:56 |  #7

Croasdail wrote in post #18924733 (external link)
Its for your own internal use, you already paid license to use these photos, and are simply making an archival copy..... all is good. So long as you don't redistribute.... all is good.

They are being re-distributed to the supplying family member. Some are posting to social platforms. Also, I have no ides what the original contract was like.


Not sure why, but call me JJ.
I used to hate math but then I realised decimals have a point.
.
::Flickr:: (external link)
::Gear::

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
40,862 posts
Gallery: 116 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 8923
Joined May 2002
Location: Midwest
Post edited over 4 years ago by TeamSpeed.
     
Sep 10, 2019 19:57 as a reply to  @ gjl711's post |  #8

The one that distribute the file to the public is the one at fault, not the person that did the archival step.

That being said, again, if these pictures are pre 1978 and have no copyright notices on them anywhere, they are considered public domain anyways. That is why so many literary and art works are in the public domain space as it is.


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)
"Man only has 5 senses, and sometimes not even that, so if they define the world, the universe, the dimensions of existence, and spirituality with just these limited senses, their view of what-is and what-can-be is very myopic indeed and they are doomed, now and forever."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
gjl711
THREAD ­ STARTER
Wait.. you can't unkill your own kill.
Avatar
57,733 posts
Likes: 4065
Joined Aug 2006
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
     
Sep 10, 2019 20:01 |  #9

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18924709 (external link)
The copyright exists so that you don't financially benefit from someone else's work, they retain those rights to financially and socially reproduce as they see fit. Just like I am able to make copies of my DVDs so that when kids scratch them up, I can still watch the movies, you are allowed to make archive copies of someone else's photos. Neither of us are selling these reproductions, so we are covered under law.

I charge nothing for my services. No $$ changes hands.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18924709 (external link)
Also, you may not be aware of this, but if these are old photos and there are no copyright watermarks etched onto the photos, they are basically considered public domain anyways.

You sure? I could not find such a reference. I know they become PD after a set period of time but all these do not fall into that category.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18924709 (external link)
Also in relation to Fair Use, which is what covers my actions in the first paragraph.

For this, again I see no reason this cannot be done, especially when it is to salvage old photos that might be destroyed and there is no way to obtain original copies from the original source, or even to know who the original source was.

I'm not really worries about anyone coming after me, the likelihood of that happening is less than winning the lottery, but it did get me thinking about the ethical considerations of printed or digital images.


Not sure why, but call me JJ.
I used to hate math but then I realised decimals have a point.
.
::Flickr:: (external link)
::Gear::

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
40,862 posts
Gallery: 116 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 8923
Joined May 2002
Location: Midwest
Post edited over 4 years ago by TeamSpeed. (2 edits in all)
     
Sep 10, 2019 20:03 as a reply to  @ gjl711's post |  #10

I posted a snippet in an earlier reply taken from Harvard School of Law.

Here is it again. This is covering literary works, but photos/illustrations would fall under the same umbrella.

Before the current Copyright Act became effective in 1978, publication of a work in the United States with a proper copyright notice conferred statutory copyright and commenced the copyright term. Publication of the work in the United States without a proper copyright notice placed the work in the public domain, with narrow exceptions. The same general rule continued, with somewhat broader exceptions, until March 1, 1989. Hence, for works published in the United States before 1978 (or, with more exceptions, before March 1, 1989), if there is no copyright notice, the work may well be in the public domain.


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)
"Man only has 5 senses, and sometimes not even that, so if they define the world, the universe, the dimensions of existence, and spirituality with just these limited senses, their view of what-is and what-can-be is very myopic indeed and they are doomed, now and forever."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
gjl711
THREAD ­ STARTER
Wait.. you can't unkill your own kill.
Avatar
57,733 posts
Likes: 4065
Joined Aug 2006
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
     
Sep 10, 2019 20:04 |  #11

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18924756 (external link)
The one that distribute the file to the public is the one at fault, not the person that did the archival step.

That being said, again, if these pictures are pre 1978 and have no copyright notices on them anywhere, they are considered public domain anyways. That is why so many literary and art works are in the public domain space as it is.

Many are pre-1980 for sure especially for my and my parents generation. Some go back to the 1940s and 1950s, but there are also many of the kids. My son was the first in my family in 1980. All are pre-2000 for sure.


Not sure why, but call me JJ.
I used to hate math but then I realised decimals have a point.
.
::Flickr:: (external link)
::Gear::

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Archibald
You must be quackers!
Avatar
15,505 posts
Gallery: 789 photos
Best ofs: 4
Likes: 51009
Joined May 2008
Location: Ottawa
     
Sep 10, 2019 20:16 |  #12

I'm doing the same as gjl711, scanning thousands of old photos. Most were taken by family members, but a few were done by professionals. It never occurred to me that there could be a copyright issue. And I can't imagine that any pro is going to come after me.

Of course it is true that weird things happen, so there might be a really remote chance that some pro will notice the copy and contact me. In such a case, I think it would be sufficient to apologize, and if he/she still wants to pursue it, to compensate the pro for lost revenue. There isn't much at stake financially, so I think it is a non-issue and I would forget about the threat.


Canon R5 and R7, assorted Canon lenses, Sony RX100, Pentax Spotmatic F
I'm Ed. Migrating to cameraderie.org and Talk Photography where I'm Archibald.

I'm probably listening to Davide of MIMIC (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
40,862 posts
Gallery: 116 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 8923
Joined May 2002
Location: Midwest
Post edited over 4 years ago by TeamSpeed.
     
Sep 10, 2019 20:28 |  #13

If somehow the stars aligned enough that a photo that was scanned made it out to the public space enough for an old photographer to even notice it and remember they were the ones that took it, and then determine they needed a lawyer for a lawsuit covering lost revenue, and then also were able to locate said negative to prove their claim and a judge ruled that indeed there was a copyright violation, I would go buy a lottery ticket and pay the damages with the guaranteed lottery amount I was about to receive. ;)


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)
"Man only has 5 senses, and sometimes not even that, so if they define the world, the universe, the dimensions of existence, and spirituality with just these limited senses, their view of what-is and what-can-be is very myopic indeed and they are doomed, now and forever."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
Combating camera shame since 1977...
Avatar
9,925 posts
Gallery: 15 photos
Likes: 2398
Joined Jun 2011
Location: The Uwharrie Mts, NC
     
Sep 11, 2019 04:05 as a reply to  @ TeamSpeed's post |  #14

Whether one is caught doesn't have anything to do with the ethics of the situation.

Likewise, the law sometimes doesn't fully respect reasonable ethical standards.

https://thelawtog.com …ices-copyright-violation/ (external link)

My biggest take away from that article is the intentional vagueness designed into copyright law. One's intent is in these situations can be considered by the judge, even if technically you are violating copyright law there are other factors at play to determine harm/loss of income to the copyright holder.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Not in gear database: Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 3x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
40,862 posts
Gallery: 116 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 8923
Joined May 2002
Location: Midwest
Post edited over 4 years ago by TeamSpeed.
     
Sep 11, 2019 06:02 |  #15

Ethics here has to do with intent. The intent is to create a backup copy of some pictures for posterity, that is covered under fair use.

It has been to court and upheld many many times in the past because of fair use. My comment was made in the situation where somehow a photo made it out, how very unlikely it would be that the photographer would see it, recognize it, and could win a lawsuit.

There simply is no risk here and there is no breach of ethics either. People constantly make mp3 files of the CDs they purchased so they can listen to them personally and more portably, and that has been upheld. This is exactly that situation.

Would you as a photographer, feel like you were being stolen from, if in 30+ years photos you printed for someone of their family started to yellow and fade, and they wanted to preserve those? Would you go through the actions of locating the raw and contacting a lawyer and suing the family, knowing that fair use will likely protect them?


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)
"Man only has 5 senses, and sometimes not even that, so if they define the world, the universe, the dimensions of existence, and spirituality with just these limited senses, their view of what-is and what-can-be is very myopic indeed and they are doomed, now and forever."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

4,643 views & 10 likes for this thread, 13 members have posted to it and it is followed by 9 members.
The ethics of scanning old photographs
FORUMS Community Talk, Chatter & Stuff General Photography Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Forums   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset   •  Home

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.58forum software
version 2.58 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is semonsters
1532 guests, 133 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15,144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.