Canon EOS R or 5div?

The times I've tried to be critical about headshots, I've found that shooting the first photo with a color checker has been a good reference. I think they're better since they try to have a range of different colors from which to sample. Some like X-rite also offer software for automatically sample and come up with a color temperature. Or for some skin tones and backgrounds, I'll be more subjective of what looks closest for the color patches vs what looks best.

RDKirk wrote in post #18997550
It wouldn't help. I use a neutral card most of the time, but it doesn't show the excessive red that shows up in skin tones. It's one of those things you have to evaluate by eye and realize that you're not seeing a natural skin tone.

If you start paying attention to dark-skinned subjects shot with Canons, you will become sensitive to it. Notice also how the Cinema holds highlights in the skin, the gums, and the teeth.

It's all there in the RAW, but the software rendition is substantially different from any of the standard Canon Picture Styles.

But if there were also a RAW file shot with the gray card included, then it would be possible to first verify the neutrality of the grey card for each of the JPG Styles shot, and then also compare the rendition of skin vs. grey card for the RAW conversion vs. each of the JPG Styles.

Your last statement seems to be a clue to the fact that it is Canon default parameters for each Style which is to blame, not the fundamental capture by a Canon sensor. Canon Styles can be changed in their parameter settings, and that might overcome your basic complaint.

Wilt wrote in post #18997562
But if there were also a RAW file shot with the gray card included, then it would be possible to first verify the neutrality of the grey card for each of the JPG Styles shot, and then also compare the rendition of skin vs. grey card for the RAW conversion vs. each of the JPG Styles.

I've run plenty of tests with gray cards and color control cards. The gray cards show no difference in from one Picture Style to another--gray is always gray between all the Picture Styles...and if you think about it, they should all show gray as gray The control patches, however, do. The Picture Styles can change the reproduction of other hues without affecting the grays.

Yes, that's my point. It's not the sensor, it's the software. And my basic complaint was overcome by tweaking the Picture Styles.

RDKirk wrote in post #18997584
I've run plenty of tests with gray cards and color control cards. The gray cards show no difference in from one Picture Style to another--gray is always gray between all the Picture Styles...and if you think about it, they should all show gray as gray The control patches, however, do. The Picture Styles can change the reproduction of other hues without affecting the grays.

Yes, that's my point. It's not the sensor, it's the software. And my basic complaint was overcome by tweaking the Picture Styles.

Ah, got it. I inherently understand that Styles would deviate things from 'true', but what I fail to comprehend is how a Style like Faithful or Neutral fail to meet that subjective description...'faithfu​l' or 'neutral', NOT! Those Style names instead are apparently both Oxymorons.

Wilt wrote in post #18997595
Ah, got it. I inherent understand that Styles would deviate things from 'true', but what I fail to comprehend is how a Style like Faithful or Neutral fail to meet that subjective description...'faithfu​l' or 'neutral', NOT! Those Style names instead are apparently both Oxymorons.

I'm not sure how much Canon profiles have changed over time...but if you do read their description of picture styles, they do indicate they have different color balances. For example, Canon's own literature says that "Faithful" is best for having the most accurate colorimetric profile. "Neutral" showing more detail in "vivid" situations (and showing more detail in bright values).

Wilt wrote in post #18997595
Ah, got it. I inherent understand that Styles would deviate things from 'true', but what I fail to comprehend is how a Style like Faithful or Neutral fail to meet that subjective description...'faithfu​l' or 'neutral', NOT! Those Style names instead are apparently both Oxymorons.

True. I've never completely understood Canon's official explanation of what "Faithful" is supposed to represent.

davesrose wrote in post #18997596
I'm not sure how much Canon profiles have changed over time...but if you do read their description of picture styles, they do indicate they have different color balances. For example, Canon's own literature says that "Faithful" is best for having the most accurate colorimetric profile. "Neutral" showing more detail in "vivid" situations (and showing more detail in bright values).

Yes, but even with film, if you tested them and gelled them to reproduce a gray card perfectly as gray, they still retained their unique characteristics. Velvia and Sensia still looked very different, even while both reproducing gray as gray. The same is true of Picture Styles.

RDKirk wrote in post #18997609
Yes, but even with film, if you tested them and gelled them to reproduce a gray card perfectly as gray, they still retained their unique characteristics. Velvia and Sensia still looked very different, even while both reproducing gray as gray. The same is true of Picture Styles.

I would have thought that film might have actually been more inconsistent (since you could use any brand film, and colors might even be a bit different with one brand’s stock). I myself only learned B&W film development...but weren’t there photographers who swore by refrigerating their preferred color stocks? At least *if you’re going by picture styles* they’re always going to stay consistent. Myself, when I’m exposing I’m looking for best contrast range and have set my profile to Neutral. I’ll also stick my passport in with a portait, which will then be another reference for color tuning after the fact. In short, I think you still had color inconsistencies with film, but with the tools we know have you can either have more leeway or figuring out a consistent system.

davesrose wrote in post #18997617
I would have thought that film might have actually been more inconsistent (since you could use any brand film, and colors might even be a bit different with one brand’s stock). I myself only learned B&W film development...but weren’t there photographers who swore by refrigerating their preferred color stocks? At least *if you’re going by picture styles* they’re always going to stay consistent. Myself, when I’m exposing I’m looking for best contrast range and have set my profile to Neutral. I’ll also stick my passport in with a portait, which will then be another reference for color tuning after the fact. In short, I think you still had color inconsistencies with film, but with the tools we know have you can either have more leeway or figuring out a consistent system.

Consistency is a different issue.

I'm talking about processes that can have very different color characteristics, yet still reproduce gray a gray.

That would make it very interesting

I just shot a MacBeth card, using the 5 different Styles built in by Canon into the 7DII and unaltered by me. I also shot it RAW, using Daylight WB under a partly cloudy but 4:45pm sky. I read the images into LR and left ALL paramenters totally unaltered.

The picture styles used earlier was a different set that was created and now is available for purchase. Anyone can make any custom picture style they want, beyond the ones that come in the cameras now. A couple of the styles on the 7D2 are designed to alter the blues and greens more like landscape, as well as change sharpness, contrasts, etc. I can see color differences in those samples. Not all the picture styles in the 7D2 (and other models) are about color tones.

After much thought guess 6 is the raw. I was tore between 1,5.6. 1 and 5 id say is faithful and neutral.

RDKirk wrote in post #18997436
... I've duplicated this same thing with the Picture Style editor.
...

Hosted photo: posted by RDKirk in
./showthread.php?p=189​97436&i=i238083590
forum: Camera Vs. Camera

Would you be willing to share the settings?

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18998114
The picture styles used earlier was a different set that was created and now is available for purchase. Anyone can make any custom picture style they want, beyond the ones that come in the cameras now. A couple of the styles on the 7D2 are designed to alter the blues and greens more like landscape, as well as change sharpness, contrasts, etc. I can see color differences in those samples. Not all the picture styles in the 7D2 (and other models) are about color tones.

But the impression I got was the RDKirk created the Cinematic style, but the others were from-factory versions of the Styles delivered with every camera.

"Here is an example I produced of the dramatic difference one commercial Picture Style for Canon can make.

This is the result of the Cinema Picture Stylehttp://www.cineplus.ch​/cinema.html available as an $8.00 download."

So I was interested in discovering how the factory Styles presented themselves vs. RAW processing the Lightroom. Ergo my test.