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Thread started 13 Oct 2019 (Sunday) 12:48
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"professional" photographer?

 
Lichter21c
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Oct 22, 2019 08:21 |  #31

DreDaze wrote in post #18948530 (external link)
no offense, but do people even buy those sort of photos already? i too think finding a fox den would be awesome...just the idea would make me happy...but there are already so many photographers that don't have to put in the work to find a fox den, and instead hit up the photogenic/used to humans foxes already...and those photos are going to be tough to beat in a regular fox den situation....but i don't even think those sell...i don't know, maybe i just have a bit of a pessimistic view on selling wildlife photography



Honestly, I have absolutely no idea. Maybe, maybe not. But im not doing it with the idea of "boy, I hope these sell" I am doing it for me. I would LOVE to sit on a fox den for a year and watch them grow up, and interact. I don't think I will ever be able to sell to a magazine, or anything like that anyways. My style just isn't "perfect" enough. I can see me making ad revenue from maybe youtube or instagram (Or whatever is next) in the future, but I don't see much Magazine revenue. I also dont have to worry about selling the fox images. I am very lucky and make enough doing weddings to take the burden of "I have to make this work" off my shoulders, and just keep enjoying it.

Will it sell? who knows. But im going to enjoy sitting in the freezing winds, rain, snow, heat and watching!




  
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Lichter21c
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Oct 22, 2019 08:25 |  #32

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18948543 (external link)
.
I think you do have an overly pessimistic view of selling wildlife photography - a view that is not based in reality.

Two friends of mine have no source of income other than selling wildlife photos, one of whom makes an EXTREMELY good living at it, and the other makes a very good living at it. . Another friend of mine also has wildlife photography as his only source of income. . He isn't doing that great, but he is "making it" with a steady middle class income.

There are actually a few dozen people in the United States alone who make their full time income via wildlife photography. . Is it very difficult to do it? . Of course. . Is it impossible? . Heck no.

EDIT: . Since I submitted this post a few minutes ago, I thought of other friends of mine who live right here in Washington state. . Two couples. . Each couple is a husband and wife team who make their entire income off of wildlife photography, and have done so for many years.

Also, another good friend in California who is full time with wildlife photography and does quite well.

I know of many others around the US and Canada, but they are not personal friends of mine such as those I have specifically mentioned above.

ANOTHER EDIT: . I thought of another friend in North Carolina who makes 100% of his income from wildlife photography and recently added wildlife videography to his professional skillset.

.




All of that is very nice to hear! I have always thought "The difference between someone successful and someone that failed, is that the person that failed gave up too soon". I have beaten the odds before, and hopefully I can do it again! Either way, even if I don't make a single dime, I'm going to be out there taking photos of wildlife. If I happen to start making money, GREAT! If not, oh well.




  
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Oct 22, 2019 10:05 |  #33

Thank you for this ... excellent insight

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18944328 (external link)
I don't know if I'm a pro or not. . That would depend on what definition of "professional" one is going by (there are many definitions of the term that are all just as accurate and valid as the others). . But over the past 10 years I have made more of my income from selling photo rights than I have via any other endeavor, so according to some, that would qualify me as a pro.

I specialize in wildlife photography, and that is where is 98% of my photography-derived income has come from.

I started learning wildlife photography by going to the local zoos day after day after day, and photographing the same animals in the same cages over and over and over again. . I tried as hard as I could to get better. . I would get home at night and download the photos and scrutinize them to death, trying to figure out how I could improve the results. . Then the next day I would be back at one of the zoos, putting my theories into practice and seeing if I had gotten any better. . I spent so much time at this for months that it was like a full time job for me.

While I was still working on my craft, I decided to move out west so that I could be closer to the kinds of animals that I really wanted to photograph. . So I sold my condo and drove out to Washington state and stayed in a friend's basement. . I spend tons and tons of time driving and hiking out in the remote areas looking for animals to photograph. . I took many road trips to neighboring states to photograph the animals there. . I was obsessed. . Photographing wildlife was pretty much the only thing in life that I really cared about (this is still the case).

After a couple of years I had amassed a fair amount of half decent wildlife photos, so I started to contact magazines that specialized in that type of content. . The magazine Editor or Art Director would send me submission guidelines, and I learned that submitting images to a publication is a lot different than just making photos for myself, to "look good".

The magazine and calendar companies I submitted to had very stringent guidelines, and if you didn't follow every single little rule then they discarded your submission and wouldn't even consider it. . No cropping. . No noise reduction. . No editing at all. . They demanded unedited files with no manipulations whatsoever. . The reasoning is that they pay a salary to an Art Director or a Graphic Artist/Designer, and they want their professional staff to be the ones editing the photos. . So this taught me something - the importance of getting it as perfect as possible in the camera, and not relying on any post processing skills or techniques.

Eventually I had some success with the magazines, as they started to accept a photo here and a photo there. . Back then (2008/2009) one could get half decent money for a photo to be used in a magazine or on a calendar. . I thought that I was on the right path to a steady, albeit lowly, income. . I would just continue to submit more photos to more magazines, and eventually I thought that these usage sales would reach a sustainable level.

But they never did reach a sustainable level. . This is because there was a big change in the photo license usage market. . The demand was increasing little by little, but the supply of such images was increasing rapidly. . In other words, there were now a whole lot of people trying to do exactly what I was doing. . Most publications abandoned working with individual photographers and started to get their images from massive stock libraries. . This was much easier and less time consuming for them, and somewhat less expensive. . I still made the occasional direct sale to a publication or to an advertising agency, but these sales were decreasing, instead of increasing, despite the fact that I was putting more time and effort into it.

So I changed along with the market and started to submit images to some of the macrostock and microstock agencies.

The agencies' demands for technical perfection were absolutely extreme. . I would see photos posted to forums such as this one that everybody thought were "great", take a closer look, and think to myself, "that photo wouldn't have a chance in hell of ever making it through the quality control process at a stock agency." . This again forced me to work on my craft even more if I was ever to have any success selling through the agencies.

Stock agency sales were terrible for me at first, but over the years I continued to submit more and more images, and eventually I had enough quality content available through the agencies that the monthly royalties got up to a level that wasn't too bad. . All those years of extreme effort was actually resulting in some consistent income. . Woo hoo!

I am still at this level where the stock agency royalties provide enough income for me to survive, when combined with income that I get from other seasonal work. . I need the photography income AND the other income in order to survive, financially. . I couldn't do without either of them.

To be honest, if I worked harder at the business end of photography, I could make a lot more than I do now. . I could submit thousands of additional photos to the agencies, and make more commissions off of those images. . But I am kind of lazy and prefer to do things that are enjoyable at the moment instead of doing things that will earn me money. . A lot of my time is spent road-tripping to take photos of wildlife, but then I never get around to submitting the photos to anyone, and just like looking at them on my computer. . Or I spend day after day just surfing the internet, looking up stuff that I am interested in and chatting away on forums like this one.

I honestly don't enjoy submitting photos to magazines or to stock agencies because it requires my mind to focus and concentrate, and I just like to let my mind wander instead. . It is easier and more enjoyable. . My brain likes to go to "happy places" and think about wildlife and travel and good food and football and pretty girls, and I like to just let it go to these places and think about these things, instead of making it work hard at something like preparing photo submissions. . So I make less than half of what I could be making. . But I am happy, and that is more important to me.

The one thing I do work VERY hard at is the actual photography itself - both the research beforehand and the outings afield. . I work my ass off doing research because it is so interesting to me that my mind just pays sharp attention to everything, without me having to make it pay attention. . In fact, wildlife and travel reearch is one of the happy plaes that my brain likes to go to anyway, so it isn't any effort to do the research. . So, it is indeed, 'work", but it is work that does not take any "effort". . Meaning that I just do what I feel like doing, but that happens to be work in this case. . Hope that makes sense.

Anyway, that is how I started my endeavors into 'professional' wildlife photography. . It kinda works for me, but obviously it would never work for someone who has financial obligations that they have to meet, or someone who has a family or something like that. . If it's just you and you don't have to be accountable to anybody for anything, then it's a somewhat viable career path because it lets you have freedom to do what you feel like most of the time.

.


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Oct 22, 2019 10:28 |  #34

Ltdave wrote in post #18948597 (external link)
I don't have any great interest in wildlife photography but, just curious where they manage to sell their work...

Certainly not in my neck of the woods that I'm aware of...

.

It is interesting to me that you mention your neck of the woods. . I have no doubt that there in Michigan where you are, if you went to the nearest sizable town, you would see hundreds upon hundreds of wildlife photos that the photographers have been paid for. . Just walk into a Barnes & Noble or a Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops or Walmart or Dick's Sporting Goods, or page through the hunting magazines on a newsstand or go to a library and page through the books that are about animals. . The wildlife photos that we have been paid for are all over eastern Michigan!

We sell our wildlife imagery to publishers and advertising agencies and manufacturers all over the world. . It isn't so much about "where" we sell our work, but rather who we sell our work to.

Our work appears ...

- on packaging for game calls, outdoor clothing, and a myriad of other sporting goods

- in advertisements for firearms, outdoor apparel, guide services, hunting & fishing gear, etc.

- in calendars for sale at bookstores, gift shops, Walmart, Cabelas, Target, etc.

- on websites for travel agencies, hunting outfitters, state parks, Game & Fish Departments, wildlife refuges

- in brochures and info booklets for wildlife refuges, state parks, nature-centric tourist attractions, etc.

- on websites and in printed media for nonprofit conservation agencies such as The Nature Conservancy, the Audubon Society, the Cornell Lab of Ornithology, Ducks Unlimited, the Sierra Club, etc.

- on magazine covers and inside content in magazines; primarily hunting and outdoor history magazines

- on book covers and inside content in books; primarily natural history and sportsman's books

- at point-of-sale displays such as endcaps and banners at retail stores like Cabelas, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro Shops, WalMart (sporting goods dept), etc.

Here's a distribution map of where some of my stock sales from this morning were located. . One sold to someone in New Zealand, one to Germany, and a bunch to various places in the U.S.

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THIS IS A LOW QUALITY PREVIEW. Please log in to see the good quality stuff.

.

"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Tom ­ Reichner
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Post edited over 4 years ago by Tom Reichner.
     
Oct 22, 2019 15:41 |  #35

DreDaze wrote in post #18948524 (external link)
.
...in my opinion if you want to be a pro...you need to shoot people...
.

.
That's an interesting opinion to have.

It leaves me wondering about the thousands of commercial photographers who shoot products for a living.

Think of all those photos of cars and toasters and brooms and cell phones and venetian blinds and hammers and tables and chairs and door knobs and nuts and bolts and miniskirts and socks and jewelry and endcap displays and filing cabinets and beer bottles and everything else that we see in advertisements and in catalogues. . Are the full-time photographers who spend their life taking those photos somehow not professionals in your opinion?

I know I'll take some heat for this, but in my opinion, the people who do that kind of work are the "real" professionals. . There are probably some photographers who actually enjoy taking pictures of people. . But to me that seems like what people settle for if they aren't qualified enough to get salaried positions or commercial contracts doing photography for big corporations and advertising agencies.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Lichter21c
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Oct 22, 2019 18:47 |  #36

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18948852 (external link)
.

I know I'll take some heat for this, but in my opinion, the people who do that kind of work are the "real" professionals. . There are probably some photographers who actually enjoy taking pictures of people. . But to me that seems like what people settle for if they aren't qualified enough to get salaried positions or commercial contracts doing photography for big corporations and advertising agencies.

.

I honestly like taking photos of people. If the "wildlife" thing never takes off, it's going to be fine. I enjoy what I do. Somedays it really feels like work, but for the most part, it's a lot of fun. You get to know a lot of people, get to chat with a lot of people, get to go a lot of places. It's always a new challenge, you get to look forward to new seasons and new adventures. I get to be apart of someones best day of their life.

I honestly don't think I would ever want a corporate position or commercial contract. My fiancee (That does the business with me), came from the corporate world where she was a mens wear designer and hated it. Corporate killed her creativity and made her feel like she was useless.




  
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Ltdave
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Oct 24, 2019 00:49 |  #37

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18948695 (external link)
.

It is interesting to me that you mention your neck of the woods. . I have no doubt that there in Michigan where you are, if you went to the nearest sizable town, you would see hundreds upon hundreds of wildlife photos that the photographers have been paid for. . Just walk into a Barnes & Noble or a Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops or Walmart or Dick's Sporting Goods, or page through the hunting magazines on a newsstand or go to a library and page through the books that are about animals. . The wildlife photos that we have been paid for are all over eastern Michigan!

We sell our wildlife imagery to publishers and advertising agencies and manufacturers all over the world. . It isn't so much about "where" we sell our work, but rather who we sell our work to.

Our work appears ...

- on packaging for game calls, outdoor clothing, and a myriad of other sporting goods

- in advertisements for firearms, outdoor apparel, guide services, hunting & fishing gear, etc.

- in calendars for sale at bookstores, gift shops, Walmart, Cabelas, Target, etc.

- on websites for travel agencies, hunting outfitters, state parks, Game & Fish Departments, wildlife refuges

- in brochures and info booklets for wildlife refuges, state parks, nature-centric tourist attractions, etc.

- on websites and in printed media for nonprofit conservation agencies such as The Nature Conservancy, the Audubon Society, the Cornell Lab of Ornithology, Ducks Unlimited, the Sierra Club, etc.

- on magazine covers and inside content in magazines; primarily hunting and outdoor history magazines

- on book covers and inside content in books; primarily natural history and sportsman's books

- at point-of-sale displays such as endcaps and banners at retail stores like Cabelas, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro Shops, WalMart (sporting goods dept), etc.

Here's a distribution map of where some of my stock sales from this morning were located. . One sold to someone in New Zealand, one to Germany, and a bunch to various places in the U.S.
Hosted photo: posted by Tom Reichner in
./showthread.php?p=189​48695&i=i9386194
forum: The Business of Photography


.

i guess, then the hurdle is getting someone to buy it for these uses. i dont have the contacts (and i really DONT have the material) needed to move wildlife photography...


-im just trying. sometimes i succeed

  
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Oct 24, 2019 01:04 |  #38

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18948695 (external link)
.

It is interesting to me that you mention your neck of the woods. . I have no doubt that there in Michigan where you are, if you went to the nearest sizable town, you would see hundreds upon hundreds of wildlife photos that the photographers have been paid for. . Just walk into a Barnes & Noble or a Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops or Walmart or Dick's Sporting Goods, or page through the hunting magazines on a newsstand or go to a library and page through the books that are about animals. . The wildlife photos that we have been paid for are all over eastern Michigan!

We sell our wildlife imagery to publishers and advertising agencies and manufacturers all over the world. . It isn't so much about "where" we sell our work, but rather who we sell our work to.

Our work appears ...

- on packaging for game calls, outdoor clothing, and a myriad of other sporting goods

- in advertisements for firearms, outdoor apparel, guide services, hunting & fishing gear, etc.

- in calendars for sale at bookstores, gift shops, Walmart, Cabelas, Target, etc.

- on websites for travel agencies, hunting outfitters, state parks, Game & Fish Departments, wildlife refuges

- in brochures and info booklets for wildlife refuges, state parks, nature-centric tourist attractions, etc.

- on websites and in printed media for nonprofit conservation agencies such as The Nature Conservancy, the Audubon Society, the Cornell Lab of Ornithology, Ducks Unlimited, the Sierra Club, etc.

- on magazine covers and inside content in magazines; primarily hunting and outdoor history magazines

- on book covers and inside content in books; primarily natural history and sportsman's books

- at point-of-sale displays such as endcaps and banners at retail stores like Cabelas, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro Shops, WalMart (sporting goods dept), etc.

Here's a distribution map of where some of my stock sales from this morning were located. . One sold to someone in New Zealand, one to Germany, and a bunch to various places in the U.S.
Hosted photo: posted by Tom Reichner in
./showthread.php?p=189​48695&i=i9386194
forum: The Business of Photography


.

what site do you use for your stock sales?


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Nov 03, 2019 20:20 |  #39

.

DreDaze wrote in post #18949535 (external link)
what site do you use for your stock sales?

.
PM sent with details.

Sorry for the late response; I've been away from home on my annual deer photography trip, and I don't get much time at all to get online when I'm away like this.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Nov 05, 2019 13:05 |  #40

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18948852 (external link)
.
That's an interesting opinion to have.

It leaves me wondering about the thousands of commercial photographers who shoot products for a living.

Think of all those photos of cars and toasters and brooms and cell phones and venetian blinds and hammers and tables and chairs and door knobs and nuts and bolts and miniskirts and socks and jewelry and endcap displays and filing cabinets and beer bottles and everything else that we see in advertisements and in catalogues. . Are the full-time photographers who spend their life taking those photos somehow not professionals in your opinion?

I know I'll take some heat for this, but in my opinion, the people who do that kind of work are the "real" professionals. . There are probably some photographers who actually enjoy taking pictures of people. . But to me that seems like what people settle for if they aren't qualified enough to get salaried positions or commercial contracts doing photography for big corporations and advertising agencies.

.

Well, thank you Tom - that's exactly what I do - product photography of all kinds. I love the job - it entails constantly learning new techniques for different surfaces, how to isolate the subject from reflections, making sure there is a clear demarcation of surfaces on single-color items to define shape, form and depth (white object on a white background with no blown whites, for example).

Try shooting through glass from the front without reflections and clearly showing art or dials (clocks), or chrome toasters and pots that require complicated set ups. Silverware is not for the faint-hearted either, and each individual pattern needs a different technique - there's no way to shoot each pattern with the same lighting, they all have to be set up differently.

It's fun, lucrative and almost my entire income is derived from it. Each new job is a learning experience, and it certainly isn't a drudge job that requires same-old-same-old day in and day out. All that knowledge can be applied to other genres of photography as well.

I love wildlife shooting, but that's more of a catch-as-catch-can technique. It's a different skill set entirely, as is portrait, sports and wedding photography (genres in which I would sink to the lowest of mediocrity at best!) All genres deserve respect for the skills aquired by the 'togs in their fields.

Cheers, Christine.


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