5dmk4 w/ EF16-35 f/2.8mk2 vs Sony A73 w/GM16-35 f/2.8 both using bounced flash w/ red focus assist.

Halloween is coming up and I'm doing my typical halloween events documentation.

Since I own both mirrored Canon FF and mirrorless Sony FF I just did a quick test in brutal low light conditions.

In a bedroom basically pitch dark with a hint of light coming from a distant hall light. Both Camera's are set to f/2.8, 1/125, iso 3200.

Sony set to AF-S using Godox V1s with red focus grid. 10 consecutive photos in extremely quick succession getting confirmation beeps and pushing the shutter button. Shutter button laggy but AF is confirmed. 4/10 was in focus. Using AF-C focus hunt was dreadful and camera was frustrating.

Canon 5dmk4 using the 600EX-rt in "one shot/af-s " using the red focus assist. There was almost no propagation delay as I pressed the shutter button. Quick 10 shots taking photos of random things in the room I landed 10/10 all tack sharp with incredible accuracy.

This is the kind of environment I get when I shoot the outdoor events with professional actors with make up scaring the crap out of the kids at a halloween event. Both my Fuji aps-c (at the time) and Sony A73 was used previous year and it was a night I had extremely poor keeper rate and focus hunt where I lost certain moments.

I commonly see so many folks saying "I dont regret dumping my heavy Canon gear" This is so dependent on their situation they shoot in and tolerance.

This brutal light condition test I performed with my two systems proved to myself that I'd without a doubt regret selling my Canon mirrored bodies. I validated keeping my heavy canon bodies but I may slim down on some of my Canon lenses. I was actually floored that the quick succession of 10 consecutive shots in complete darkness landed 10/10 perfectly sharp images.

If I used LED lights this would be a different story with my Sony gear for AF acquisition. However using a video light is quite distracting compared to a stealth looking red focus light from my Canon flash.

The mirrorless tech is still amazing but for certain the simple test I performed clearly indicated that the old tech mirrored body fully utilizes red focus light to TRULY assist in AF. The godox V1s with red focus grid does really help the Sony mirrorless AF system but not exactly reliable either. Also the AF-S usage with Sony gear really doesn't take advantage of the Sony AF system.

On the weekend I put my aging 5dmk3 to the test. A local house in North Vancouver transforms their home in to a haunted house during the Halloween festivities. Donations accepted and the proceeds goes to the Firefighter's burn fund.

Imagine the pitch dark environment. The 5dmk3 with 600EX-RT using the red focus grid effortlessly landed every shot with incredible accuracy with instant shutter button reaction.

I'm aware that the 5dmk4 would have produced better IQ but this was one situation where I'm absolutely certain my previous Fuji aps-c or my current Sony A73 would struggle in AF while bouncing flash. Using the 5dmk3 I almost forgot how simple it is to acquire AF in pitch darkness while every second counts to document.

I really did miss the cleaner files I achieve with my Sony A73. However during this photo opportunity I would say landing the shot is more important than putting emphasis on cleaner image. Having cleaner shots that may possibly miss the "moment" defeats the purpose.

I was hoping to see example pictures from the Sony and the Canon.

For low light events, like club party, i always use my "old" 1dx with 600RT. 1000 times more accurate AF than Sony A9 that i use in normal conditions.

adned wrote in post #18968975
For low light events, like club party, i always use my "old" 1dx with 600RT. 1000 times more accurate AF than Sony A9 that i use in normal conditions.

I would agree 100% !!

Halloween has long passed. I cannot stress the importance of landing every moment regardless of family events to hired events.

My A73 still misses shots due to hunting. In fact pretty much any mirrorless would miss some shots due to AF hunt. My Canon mirrored gear just simply flat out works every single time. The "missed" shots is my human error and not the hardware/gear.

Very happy I found this thread! I've been contemplating a 5Diii or a Sony a7rii for band photography in poor-lit venues. Sounds like I'll go for the 5D!

Scottboarding wrote in post #18969309
Very happy I found this thread! I've been contemplating a 5Diii or a Sony a7rii for band photography in poor-lit venues. Sounds like I'll go for the 5D!

To be honest "most" cases you can have sufficient to great lighting due to spotlights.

In your application this is where you cannot use the "advantage" of red focus assist with a mirrored body. My example is where there is almost NO light but the red focus assist with the external flash permits an insane keeper rate in AF with no hunt.

When you use a mirrorless like the fuji X-t3 you can have a light sensitivity of -3EV. 5dmk3 is -2EV so according on paper the X-t3 will land the shots "better" in low light. I believe the Canon 5dmk4 is -3EV and -4EV in live view. Please do your research and do not rely on my specs I mentioned.

According to specs the Sony A73 has a low light sensitivity of -3EV. AF hunt is also partly to do with the lens mounted on the camera too. Some lenses are just more prone to AF hunt.

I will say for my uses when I bounce flash my Canon gear has never ever failed me in any sort of AF hunt. You can read some mirrorless folks claiming they never have issues with AF hunt and I do not fully believe such claims. Since I shoot both I find without a doubt the oldschool mirrored bodies to have no laggy shutter actuations while bouncing flash. When I shoot available light the beauty of mirrorless is focus peaking in manual mode. This is where there are advantages in using mirrorless systems. In the Sony world I have heard that the A9 is still much better in low light AF compared to other Sony bodies.

When a mirror is covering the cmos sensor there is some form of protection. On a mirrorless you can have a laser enter the lens and immediately damage the sensor. If you hit the shutter button on the mirrorless this is when risk of laser damage can occur when the mirror moves.

The 5dmk3 will produce a magenta colour as you uplift shadows. This is where the Canon 5dmk4 would have a more flexible RAW file. The Sony A73 is amazing in uplifting shadows and retain clean raw files. This is why I do enjoy using both systems still.

AlanU wrote in post #18969328
To be honest "most" cases you can have sufficient to great lighting due to spotlights.

The shows I shoot are usually small bars or venues with flashing and moving lights which doesn't help AF much. One second the subject is perfectly lit, the next second the light points to another direction and the subject is in near black. In some cases the singer will leave the stage and go into the crowd where there is absolutely no light in which case manual focus is my only option.

I'm currently using a 6D, which works pretty well aside from the fact that the only useful focus point is in the center. Plus, the -3ev is only in single shot from what I've seen, which doesn't help me in Al-servo. I'm guessing that the 5Diii will preform better than the 6D considering the -3ev doesn't apply to my case. What I need more than anything is good tracking which while available in some Sonys, isn't available in the ones I can afford.

I can save you the research as I shoot with the X-T3 so have actual experience to share. The Fuji X-T3 can focus with PDAF down to -6EV so really no need for any assists there. The 5D4 can do -3ev but only with the one single centre AF point so still a bit limiting. Of course with the huge EVF in the Fuji X-T3 manual focus is no bother at all but really in my experience it handles the dark well. Fuji's X-T30 is the same

Two Hot Shoes wrote in post #18969491
I can save you the research as I shoot with the X-T3 so have actual experience to share. The Fuji X-T3 can focus with PDAF down to -6EV so really no need for any assists there. The 5D4 can do -3ev but only with the one single centre AF point so still a bit limiting. Of course with the huge EVF in the Fuji X-T3 manual focus is no bother at all but really in my experience it handles the dark well. Fuji's X-T30 is the same

Coming from the Fuji Canada's official page the x-t3 is advertised as -3ev sensitivity.

https://www.fujifilm.c​a …_t3/features/pa​ge_04.html

Did something recently change in firmware? Kim you should bow down to the crop Sony sensor your Fuji has in your X-t3 then LOL!!!

I do not find single point AF too limiting with my Mirrored bodies. I've never really had issue using the focus/recompose technique. I never missed a beat using that method compared to some low light conditions with my Sony and older Fuji X-T2.

My main point of this thread was to imply that there is a difference between a mirrored body bouncing flash fully utilizing red focus assist while my Sony mirrorless (as well as all mirrorless) cannot fully take advantage of the red focus assist.

I call true BS that a Sony or Fuji system has no need for red focus assist or any assistance. Truly a laughable comparison as the MIRRORED body while using red focus assist in a reasonable distance of 5-10 meters (32 feet) with no AF focus lag and incredible instant auto focus in pitch black darkness during my Halloween events. This is where I push my limits in never missing a shot using my Canon gear. During challenging events the Canon while bouncing flash never struggles for me at all....ever. This is not about brand preference as this is basing it purely on system performance with no compromising or making excuses. I would also choose a Nikon FF mirrored over any mirrorless as well for 100% rock solid AF performance while bouncing flash/red af focus assist.

It's often seen that many will defend the brand they shoot (typically 1 brand only for fast paced events photography). This is where in low light I could not settle for a Sony aps-c sensor in the Fuji system. The A73 clearly displayed noticeable and obvious advantages in low light. I personally know many hired photogs accepting what their gear provides them in RAW files and say "it is what it is" when the image is noisy and just adequate. This is where I see them converting black and white and call it artistic..... Fact is a photographer cannot control the available light environment. You must endure the worst lighting and appreciate the easy...…. Mirrored bodies while bouncing flash is still clearly superior in AF performance to mirrorless. This is my experience as I still shoot back to back with my Canon and Sony mirrorless system. In good light I love them both.

For Low light available light shooting, Raw file manipulation I'd take my -3EV low light AF capabilities in my Sony A73 over the X-t3 any day. Simply due to the fact that the Sony FF sensor is still a step above the Sony aps-c found in the Fuji body. Time and time again my Sony A73 raw files have impressed me as they just do not fall apart as quickly as my Fuji aps-c system.

For low light with highlights (bright lights) in the background my Canon with bounced flash just lands the shots due to red af assist. With my previous Fuji system and even my Sony mirrorless I still find in low light bar scenes the AF can hunt on the subjects while the background that is brightly lit confuses the camera.

Scottboarding, if you are familiar with the low light performance of the 6d you'll appreciate the fresh new tech in an aps-c Fuji body. You may find the single sd card Fuji X-t30 to have great dynamic range (same sensor as X-t3 iirc). This is an alternative. The 5dmk3 is older now and Sony has ramped up in tech for the sensors. Your available light needs may benefit more with a new body with a Sony aps-c sensor rather than a 5dmk3 equipped with a Canon older FF sensor.

You description of your environment is not easy at all. The benefits of mirrorless may be a plus for you. You can flick the manual focus switch with a Sony/Fuji etc and go into manual focus and use focus peaking to land sharp images.

One thing you can try is to put a flash on your 6d. Use one shot AF mode and disable the flash head. This way you can use your red focus assist from your canon flash. This will be an extremely big improvement in keepers if you are in reasonable proximity. AF simply hammers the shots with confidence and accuracy.

Full disclosure I have full piece of mind never missing a beat with my heavier mirrored bodies while bouncing flash during events regardless of lighting. With my previous Fuji or current Sony system I've missed shots due to focus hunt. This is hard for me to accept as I do miss some money shots with mirrorless. This was a serious shock to me when I first got into mirrorless bodies and low light shooting. There are pros and cons to both so this is not jaded talk. I'm a Canon shooter and I'd have no hesitation shooting Nikon mirrored for SOLID af using red af focus assist.

Try to borrow or test different bodies/systems. You will never know until you try. You must also consider in your trial time that you are adapting to something new. For example when I bought into Sony I adapted Canon glass with a sigma Mc-11. This does not fully utilize the power of the Sony AF system. Now that I'm using Sony native glass its a massive jump in performance.

Do research......

Oh s41t, yes meant to write -3 sorry, was reading something else about AF while I was replying on my phone. Oops my bad forget I mentioned that

Have a check at Flemming Bo Jensen’s gig work, he does good stuff with his Fuji gear https://flemmingbojens​en.com/