2 questions about mirrorless

For one accustomed to SLRs, I have two questions about mirrorless cameras. (1) battery life compared to an SLR. Clearly, the viewfinder uses battery power. So? (2) shutter lag. My style of photography involves releasing the shutter at key moments. The last time I used a point-and-shoot, the shutter released too long after I wanted the scene to be captured. With an optical viewfinder, I'm looking at the real scene. If shutter lag is negligible, how much of a lag is there getting the image onto the viewfinder?

I think it's going to depend on which cameras you are comparing, no? Shutter lag and battery life, even between dSLRS, varies from camera to camera, and it's the same with mirrorless I'm sure.

Seems like you need an Olympus with pro capture you can capture the shot before you fully press the shutter button ,
Its a bit like going back in time .
Rob.

Well, yes it will depend, not just model to model, but also era. Mirrorless are improving every year.

A good way to compare this "apples to oranges" question is in the rare case when a manufacturer has current DSLR and Mirrorless that are similarly spec'd.

The only one I would be qualified to comment on, happens to be just such a case, EOS 5D4 DSLR vs. EOS-R Mirrorless.

There are a number of aspects of this pair that are directly comparable and will go some way to help answer some of the OP's specific questions.
Battery Life, Shutter Lag, and Viewfinder Lag.

What the 5D4 and EOS-R have in common that make them a great place to compare;
- Same Battery
- Same Sensor
- Same manufacturer
- Similar (but the same, 5D4 is a few years older) tech "era"

- Battery Life: 5D4 has better battery life from the same batteries. The LCD screen is obviously a big part of this. Also there is the IS issue with the EOS R where having the LCD screen on to the EOS R means spinning up Image Stabilization. So your IS is on much more constantly than on the 5D4 (or any DSLR) Also, I have always set up my own DSLRs to try to conserve batteries in a way that I really can't with the EOS R, like no image review, etc..
All that said, the EOS R battery life is much better than I expected it would be. If you are comparing shots taken over a similar SHORT period of time, the EOS R is not going to be too far behind. No, "shot count" was a good measure for DSLR, but is not a good measure for Mirrorless where the bigger concern is how long you are running off the one battery. I can watch a 3 hour performance fully at the ready with any DSLR and take 20 photos and come out with 92% battery left easy. With the EOS R, I am going to burn 3 hours of battery while waiting for those 20 shots.

- Shutter Lag: I haven't measured, but then, I haven't noticed. And that is huge. With my previous P&S and Mirrorless I was always aware of a delay. Not so with the EOS R. I'd hazard a guess that this would hold true of most any decent modern Mirrorless. Things have come a long way.

- Viewfinder Lag: I will need to do more to be fully convinced. EVF has been one of my main issues with Mirrorless. When I got my XT1 Fuji, I was being told that EVF was finally of age, and it was just as good as DSLR. Well, that was so far from the truth it was laughable. Bringing that camera on a trip to Africa proved that to me. Two of us on that trip had the same Xt1 and we both agreed it was good for around the campfire, but of little use to us for shooting wildlife. I have not had opportunity to really test the EOS R under the kind of demanding circumstances that rendered my XT1 "useless" but my impression from what I have used it for is that it is a good deal better than that 2 generations old Fuji. Both in EVF response and Auto Focus ability.

I shoot Fujifilm cameras. For battery life I'm getting about 800 shots per battery & that is with boost mode on. My view is that's more than fine for my use as the batteries are small and easy to swap, I can always add the grip and have two extra batteries, so three in total if I need to. Also the camera can be powered via the USB-c port, either by a power bank or when connected to a computer & that's good for me as I shoot tethered a lot.

Shutter lag was for sure a big thing in the older models (with Fuji) I think the X-T1 was a lot better than some others out there but still you had to time your press to get the right moment. With the newer cameras it's really not a thing anymore. The lag really was in two parts, one part was the usual time for the shutter to operate from the press of the shutter button, set AF and aperture and then cycle the shutter. Same as all cameras. The second one was the lag in the EVF, this was painful in early ILMCs. Thankfully things have moved on quite a bit, now we have 100+fps EVFs and a lag time of 0.005s. I don't find any issues with lag today, the EVF reports so quickly it's seamless to my eyes.

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18981594
Well, yes it will depend, not just model to model, but also era. Mirrorless are improving every year.

A good way to compare this "apples to oranges" question is in the rare case when a manufacturer has current DSLR and Mirrorless that are similarly spec'd.

The only one I would be qualified to comment on, happens to be just such a case, EOS 5D4 DSLR vs. EOS-R Mirrorless.

There are a number of aspects of this pair that are directly comparable and will go some way to help answer some of the OP's specific questions.
Battery Life, Shutter Lag, and Viewfinder Lag.

What the 5D4 and EOS-R have in common that make them a great place to compare;
- Same Battery
- Same Sensor
- Same manufacturer
- Similar (but the same, 5D4 is a few years older) tech "era"

- Battery Life: 5D4 has better battery life from the same batteries. The LCD screen is obviously a big part of this. Also there is the IS issue with the EOS R where having the LCD screen on to the EOS R means spinning up Image Stabilization. So your IS is on much more constantly than on the 5D4 (or any DSLR) Also, I have always set up my own DSLRs to try to conserve batteries in a way that I really can't with the EOS R, like no image review, etc..
All that said, the EOS R battery life is much better than I expected it would be. If you are comparing shots taken over a similar SHORT period of time, the EOS R is not going to be too far behind. No, "shot count" was a good measure for DSLR, but is not a good measure for Mirrorless where the bigger concern is how long you are running off the one battery. I can watch a 3 hour performance fully at the ready with any DSLR and take 20 photos and come out with 92% battery left easy. With the EOS R, I am going to burn 3 hours of battery while waiting for those 20 shots.

- Shutter Lag: I haven't measured, but then, I haven't noticed. And that is huge. With my previous P&S and Mirrorless I was always aware of a delay. Not so with the EOS R. I'd hazard a guess that this would hold true of most any decent modern Mirrorless. Things have come a long way.

- Viewfinder Lag: I will need to do more to be fully convinced. EVF has been one of my main issues with Mirrorless. When I got my XT1 Fuji, I was being told that EVF was finally of age, and it was just as good as DSLR. Well, that was so far from the truth it was laughable. Bringing that camera on a trip to Africa proved that to me. Two of us on that trip had the same Xt1 and we both agreed it was good for around the campfire, but of little use to us for shooting wildlife. I have not had opportunity to really test the EOS R under the kind of demanding circumstances that rendered my XT1 "useless" but my impression from what I have used it for is that it is a good deal better than that 2 generations old Fuji. Both in EVF response and Auto Focus ability.

I have the R in ECO mode, it lags even more than usual because I don’t trust the battery life, and accept it as a slower camera, But the A9 is worlds apart, and once you lock on a subject, it’s hard to shake, along with brute force of 15-20 FPS....the R is the most polished mirrorless camera, also the slowest rate FPS. The A9 EVF is 120hz, like gaming rigs, and IQ not as high, to prioritize speed. 0 blackout between frames. Battery life is also much higher rated on the A9.

Honestly I’ve been pretty impressed with the battery life on the EOS R. I don’t use Eco mode or any of those features. The most recent camera I have used for comparison is the t6i so maybe I’m just not used to newer camera battery life?

I don’t notice much shutter lag. There is a brief pause if I’m shooting in One Shot but it’s not too annoying.

I wonder whether the EVF lag is something that is over-rationalized. Personally, I notice flicker when a screen in general gets below around 110 Hz, but never noticed anything with the EOS-R.

Neither do I see where a dslr OVF would be more reliable, or better for that matter, as the EVF shows one how it is actually stored as an image. Apart from being able to easily and immediately see any changes to the settings you make, for any of the image attributes.

As to battery life, the only time I got only a little of over 600 shots from a single battery was in a fairly cold environment. I generally get 800 to 1100 shots from a single battery .... . Oh, I always have a few backup batteries with me as well, basically something I have been doing all the time anyway since going digital in 2004, and before that spare standard batteries when using flash units.

Shutter lag is not noticeable at all, not to me anyway.

The only thing that I find awkward, is that it occasionally shows a way too bright image when switching the camera on, until I press the shutter button down halfway for exposure. It appears to remember the previous settings, but i guess I may have to use different settings to circumvent that. Still experimenting after 6 months, however .

The dislike people seem to have over the placement of the focus button on the back I had originally has well, but it took me all of 10 minutes or so to get used to it, and now I never notice it again. It is slightly further towards the right, but all it is IMO is a matter of muscle memory. It is not at all awkwardly placed, unless you use a zillion of other Canon cameras, specifically dslrs, in combination.

The multi-function bar is something you need to find the right use for, IMO, as it really is two buttons and a slider in one. I use it for image magnification when focusing, and it works well and fast for me. No need for a joystick, the lcd screen works just fine for me for positioning the focus point. Fast and natural. And there are IMO too many focus points anyway to control with a joy stick. Of course, I am biased being right-eyed and right-handed . I use the right half of the screen for positioning, if required.

I really appreciate how much sharper my images have become with the EOS-R, both with using EF lenses, and with RF-lenses, although in the latter case they tend to be the nicest images I have ever seen from my own hand, IQ wise. The rendering and sharpness distribution is absolutely superb, with any of the 4 RF lenses I own, although those from the 85 and 50 are by far the best.

Anyway, Just my 2 or 3 cents .

Kind regards, Wim

I agree with much of the above. Battery life depends a lot on screen use with mirrorless cameras. I’ve actually nearly completely drained a battery in an older model Olympus EM10 II with the screen on for a while during setup. Newer Olympus cameras like the EM1 II have fixed this with larger batteries. Sony did the same with their 3rd generation bodies, so overall, battery life with mirrorless cameras isn’t really an issue like it has been in the past. Is it as good as a DSLR? Probably not, but it’s certainly more than adequate in my experience with the A7III, A9, and EM1 II. Older mirrorless cameras like the EM 10 II with smaller batteries were frustrating.

As far as lag goes, all mirrorless bodies I’ve shot with have a bit of EVF lag. Olympus has ProCapture that captures shots while the shutter is half pressed, before its fully pressed. It’s all electronic shutter of course so that limits it’s use a bit, but it works pretty well. As expected, the lag of the A9 is less than the A7III. I’ve shot sports with all 3 cameras and tried to time specific shots, which isn’t too terribly difficult with some practice and getting used to how the camera works. The A9 may still be a tick slower than top end 1-series DSLR bodies for lag, but I’ll put up with that to have the insanely good AF tracking and 20fps with no blackout. Some bodies will have a different perceived lag when shooting bursts (sometimes only in certain modes), because the EVF is actually displaying a preview of the last shot instead of a live preview. That can make framing a fast moving subject a little tricky. For example, the A7III has a Hi (8fps) and Hi+ mode (10fps). Hi is essentially “real time”, but Hi+ does what I described above and shows a preview of the previous shot.

wimg wrote in post #18982680
I wonder whether the EVF lag is something that is over-rationalized. Personally, I notice flicker when a screen in general gets below around 110 Hz, but never noticed anything with the EOS-R.

Neither do I see where a dslr OVF would be more reliable, or better for that matter, as the EVF shows one how it is actually stored as an image. Apart from being able to easily and immediately see any changes to the settings you make, for any of the image attributes....

Shutter lag is not noticeable at all, not to me anyway....

Kind regards, Wim

In an earlier post I discuss the topic of EVF lag of mirrorless vs shutter latency of dSLR

https://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=18812237

Frankly, for most photographers I do not think either is significant enough to worry about. But for SOME photographers, one or the other lag DOES MATTER in a very significant way, so the issue(s) should be understood and considered, to deem if they matter to you the buyer/user. My old posts simply pointed out an example (Blue Angel framed by the tower of the Golden Gate Bridge) of even 120Hz EVF minimal lag adding impediment to the perfectly timed shot.

Wilt wrote in post #18982721
In an earlier post I discuss the topic of EVF lag of mirrorless vs shutter latency of dSLR

https://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=18812237

Frankly, for most photographers I do not think either is significant enough to worry about. But for SOME photographers, one or the other lag DOES MATTER in a very significant way, so the issue(s) should be understood and considered, to deem if they matter to you the buyer/user. My old posts simply pointed out an example (Blue Angel framed by the tower of the Golden Gate Bridge) of even 120Hz EVF minimal lag adding impediment to the perfectly timed shot.

this shot?
https://www.flickr.com …28210691@N08/15​310974377/

captured on the Sony A7

Wilt wrote in post #18982721
In an earlier post I discuss the topic of EVF lag of mirrorless vs shutter latency of dSLR

https://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=18812237

Frankly, for most photographers I do not think either is significant enough to worry about. But for SOME photographers, one or the other lag DOES MATTER in a very significant way, so the issue(s) should be understood and considered, to deem if they matter to you the buyer/user. My old posts simply pointed out an example (Blue Angel framed by the tower of the Golden Gate Bridge) of even 120Hz EVF minimal lag adding impediment to the perfectly timed shot.

Hi Wilt,

You may have notivced I specfically said: not to me.

As to your example, IMO it does not make a lof of difference whether using a dslr or mirrorless with fast enough refresh rate, basically because it really is all determined by the knowledge and experience of the pghotographer. You need to know your gear inside out, you need to know the subject, you need to eb able to anticipate, subject and camera, whatever lag there is, and there always is. Even the micro-lags caused by the electronics of either type of camera, which, BTW, are way, way, way shorter these days than anythign you can achieve with human reaction time, about 1/10s to 1/15s for most of us when sharply aware, 1/20s for some fortunate people with faster reaction speeds.

For shots like that I would personally use one eye for framing, the other to see where the plane is, or rather is going to be, anticipate where it is, have a good feel for shutter lag, and press the shutter button at the right time. And I rarely, if ever use continuous shooting mode, BTW, dating from the dinosaur slr age. And alternatively, if it really comes to that and I would be to slow, and can't anticiapte fast enough, I'd use my E-M1 II with the 20 shot Pro-Capture mode.

Kind regards, Wim

The shot with the Blue Angle and the San-Fran bridge is not an example of good timing. It's an example of high frame rate and great positioning. Just look at his Flickr site. There are a bunch of shots, very similar, some taken with a 5DII. I don't know why in this day you would risk missing a great shot because you want to do it in a single shutter press when most cameras these days support fairly large buffers and decent frame rates.

Heya,

I shoot 1D Canon series and Fuji X-T series mirrorless for reference. The battery life is tremendously different if you compare the big battery of the 1D (modern, not those old ones) versus virtually any mirrorless. I can go several days on my 1D's battery. My Fuji will get changed per use on average if it's an "all day" thing, but it will last a few days of random use over the course of a few days.

Shutter lag, EVF lag, etc, is nothing to even be concerned with unless you're using really ancient mirrorless equipment. Anything relatively recent is as good as an OVF. I have zero noticeable difference of lag of any sort between my 1D III and my Fuji X-T1, both from the view finders nor from the shutter experience.

To me, the only thing a big old SLR has at this point is the bigger battery option. But even then, that's mostly only some bodies. For everyone else, it takes a battery grip to get to that point. And mirrorless have those battery grips too, if you need that kind of battery performance.

Very best,

Charlie wrote in post #18983242
this shot?
https://www.flickr.com …28210691@N08/15​310974377/

captured on the Sony A7

gjl711 wrote in post #18983253
The shot with the Blue Angle and the San-Fran bridge is not an example of good timing. It's an example of high frame rate and great positioning. Just look at his Flickr site. There are a bunch of shots, very similar, some taken with a 5DII. I don't know why in this day you would risk missing a great shot because you want to do it in a single shutter press when most cameras these days support fairly large buffers and decent frame rates.

Yes, incredible LUCK for ANY camera to have caught that frame!

• Blue Angel travelling 350mph is moving 513 ft/sec. so even with a camera that shoots continuously at 10fps, you can miss the centered position within the opening by 51 feet...that is about 5 feet short of the full length of the FA/18 ! High frame rate is NOT the salvation for any camera, with or without a reflex mirror! Even a 30fps video segment is lucky to capture the plane centered in the opening.
  
• Add in the fact that the view of the airplane is presented to the shooter 1/60 second late due to having to first convert RAW data to JPG and then update the EVF, and the plane is inherently presented 8.6' behind its actual position at that speed.