Camera Battery Musings ???

I have accumulated several little Canon pocket cameras and have a few Canon DSLR.
The batteries for the pocket cameras are about 2/3 the size of the LP-E10 that fit our T3s
Now, we also have a couple 7D, a 1 and a 2; their batteries are HUGE in comparison.
Considering available mAh capacity of the HUGE LP-E6 is no more than that of the little pocket camera batteries, for what reason are the LP-E6 so big ? If the mAh are comparable, the LP-E6 is not going to have a bit more holding power.
Unless there is a hidden reason that I have not yet understood, why couldn't the semi-pro cameras fare just as well with the smaller batteries ? It is not like they have a proportionate amount of mAh in accordance with their larger size.
Not that it is any big deal; I would just like to know.

While I don't understand battery technologies well, I would wager a guess to your question:

It's easy enough to find batteries and cells of various physical sizes, some larger
and some smaller, with identical ratings. I would imagine that a cell with a larger
physical size can accept and maintain a charge longer than a cell of a smaller size,
simply due to the fact that it probably has more of the components and chemicals
within it to support the stated ratings.

So, for example, take a typical AA rechargeable NiMH cell rated at 2000 MAh:
It's a small cell, intended for use in small electric/electronic devices which draw little power
to operate. They easily operate low-draw devices like TV remotes for a long time,
and even wall clocks for more than a year.

Now take that same cell technology, but put more of what makes it work into
a larger package, and it's able to store and deliver power for a longer period of time.
This is likely why you see batteries of the same ratings but of vastly differing sizes
powering your various cameras.

The Point-N-Shoot cameras no doubt use less power in operation, while DSLRs
use much more, owing to motor-driven shutters and many other things
such as metering and driving larger AF lens motors.

I think the coin/button batteries are a perfect example of this theory.
They power watches, hearing aids, remote controls, etc., yet most of them are
a 3V output. The larger 2032 batteries commonly power car remotes
and computer motherboards because they need to have a longer lifespan.
Watch batteries and similar, which are far smaller, don't have such a power draw
imposed on them, and still last for years.

In a situation like this, it seems that size DOES matter.

But the maH rating, the capacity of the battery to hold current for delivery to the device, is the same, according to the OP.

OP, one needs to consider what the Voltage rating is, for the two batteries...what are the two batteries rated at what Voltage?

Wilt wrote in post #19014024
But the maH rating, the capacity of the battery to hold current for delivery to the device, is the same, according to the OP.

OP, one needs to consider what the Voltage rating is, for the two batteries...what are the two batteries rated at what Voltage?

7.4 volt for the 3rd party replacements; curiously, the genuine Canon branded ones are labeled 7.2 volt 1800mAh
I figure that in reality, the Canon batteries are also 7.4 volt; as, such batteries are usually either 3.7 volt or twice that at 7.4 volt
Maybe the semi-pro batteries are so much larger to better absorb the trauma of deep discharges and rapid recharges, kinda like a deep cycle marine-type battery.

BuckSkin wrote in post #19014322
7.4 volt for the 3rd party replacements; curiously, the genuine Canon branded ones are labeled 7.2 volt 1800mAh
I figure that in reality, the Canon batteries are also 7.4 volt; as, such batteries are usually either 3.7 volt or twice that at 7.4 volt
Maybe the semi-pro batteries are so much larger to better absorb the trauma of deep discharges and rapid recharges, kinda like a deep cycle marine-type battery.

Intriguing...the same Voltage, the same total capacity, but different size!

Hang on, though. I just looked up the LP-E6 and the LP-E10: 1865 mAh vs. 860 mAh

Wilt wrote in post #19014324
Intriguing...the same Voltage, the same total capacity, but different size!

Hang on, though. I just looked up the LP-E6 and the LP-E10: 1865 mAh vs. 860 mAh

No doubt that is it; our Wasabi LP-E6 are 2600 mAh and our highest LP-E10 are 2000mAh
If I had of thought of them like comparing AA and AAA batteries, I would have came upon that before I got the question typed.
All of my life, I have known that the bigger the flash-light battery, the higher the mAh capacity; I should have automatically known that the same rule applied to these camera batteries.
That is what I get for thinking with my mouth open.

BuckSkin wrote in post #19015005
No doubt that is it; our Wasabi LP-E6 are 2600 mAh and our highest LP-E10 are 2000mAh
If I had of thought of them like comparing AA and AAA batteries, I would have came upon that before I got the question typed.
All of my life, I have known that the bigger the flash-light battery, the higher the mAh capacity; I should have automatically known that the same rule applied to these camera batteries.
That is what I get for thinking with my mouth open.

Just because the label states a capacity doe not mean it is true.
The cells in Canon batteries have much higher, true, capacities than what Canon labels them as.
They are not like a bottle that has a simple capacity that is easy to measure.

Here is some explanation of how Li-ion cells need to be managed in devices.
Notice both examples provide 98% depleted levels. Canon, not being morons, will not set 98% levels as the point the camera will shut down due to low battery.
That's what happens, the battery does not become fully depleted. Rather, the device measures the voltage, under an amount of load, and shut's the camera down. These Panasonic cells have a true capacity of approx 3500mAh. In a Canon 1 Series camera, which do use 18650 cells, as per these examples, the pack would be rated at about 2900 mAh or even less. It is a conservative rating to account for some ageing of the cell and more importantly the large safety margins Canon builds into their devices which shut down the device long before cells are fully depleted. Wasabi would just put a 3500MAh label on.

From this honest seller:
https://www.ebay.com.a​u …nasonic-Sanyo-NCR18650GA-3500mAh-Lithium-Batteries-NIPPLE/281875641408?ha​sh=item41a118f440

The following examples are an approximate guide only.

Example 1. Sanyo UR18650F 2600mAh, minimum Voltage is 2.75Volts.

At a 3amp continuous discharge, when the voltage under load reaches 2.75 volts, the load must be disconnected. 10 seconds after disconnection, the battery will show approx. 3.4 volts. One minute after disconnection, the voltage will rise to approx 3.5 volts. 24 Hours after, it will show approx. 3.6volts. At 3.6V 24 hour resting, the battery is 98% depleted. It will have approx 50ma remaining capacity and should be recharged before use. At 3.5V 24 hour resting, the battery is 100% depleted and any use without recharging will permanently damage the battery. At 0.5A discharge, the numbers are approx 3.1v, 3.2v and 3.5v respectively.

Example 2. Panasonic NCR18650A 3100mAh, minimum Voltage is 2.5Volts.

At a 3amp continuous discharge, when the voltage under load reaches 2.5 volts, the load must be disconnected. 10 seconds after disconnection, the battery will show approx. 3.1 volts. One minute after disconnection, the voltage will rise to approx 3.2 volts. 24 Hours after, it will show approx. 3.35volts. At 3.35V 24 hour resting, the battery is 98% depleted. It will have approx 50ma remaining capacity and should be recharged before use. At 3.3V 24 hour resting, the battery is 100% depleted and any use without recharging will permanently damage the battery. At 0.5A discharge, the numbers are approx 2.8v, 3.0v and 3.3v respectively.

Notice example 2. 3100mAh with cut off at 2.5 Volts. Third party makes a pack for canon camera and labels the pack, honestly, as 3100mAh.
Put it in a Canon camera designed with Example 1 cells, cut off at 2.75 Volts. Canon designs in safety margin so cut off set at 3.0V.
So the 3100mAh pack may now be 2000mAh.

That's what I mean about not a bottle. A 1 litre bottle is always a 1 litre bottle.

Wasabi are not being dishonest by labelling the pack's capacity to match the capacity of the cells they use.
Canon are being sensible and safe by ensuring the Camera will keep a large safety margin, which means the available capacity will be much lower than maximum and label their packs to match available, not maximum capacity.

The highest capacity 18650 cells currently available are 3600mAh.
Despite this:

Choderboy wrote in post #19034162
The highest capacity 18650 cells currently available are 3600mAh.

Interesting, Dave, but an 18650 cell does not seem to conform
to standards of a common AA cell. In particular, the 18650 cell is
typically a nominal voltage of 3.6V, while a more standard AA cell
is rated for a nominal 1.5V each. Additionally, there are dimensional
differences between the two, suggesting they are both physically
and electrically not the same.

Therefore, I would suggest your broad comparison presented here
may be misleading for the sake of substituting one for the other.
If 18650 cells will physically fit into a device, it could be that using those cells
in a device meant for AA cells may damage the device if it has been
designed for use with AA cells. This is likely to be destructive to
complicated electronics, and I would strongly advise against trying it.

There is no way to mistake an 18650 for a AA; the 18650 is longer and fatter by quite a bit.

I was not aware that any Canon camera used 18650s; that is interesting to know.

I do have several of those overly rated 18650 like you pictured, not exactly the same brand but most likely made in the same factory; I have a super-bright multi-bulb head-lamp; and, just tonight, I drained three pair from fully-charged to too dim to see between 7:PM and 10:PM while working on my truck. The lamp takes two 18650.

I may get a couple pair of those really good 18650 for those times when having much longer battery duration is important.

Just messing around here and at the barn, it is not the end of the world if I have to switch batteries.

SkedAddled wrote in post #19034219
Interesting, Dave, but an 18650 cell does not seem to conform
to standards of a common AA cell. In particular, the 18650 cell is
typically a nominal voltage of 3.6V, while a more standard AA cell
is rated for a nominal 1.5V each. Additionally, there are dimensional
differences between the two, suggesting they are both physically
and electrically not the same.

Therefore, I would suggest your broad comparison presented here
may be misleading for the sake of substituting one for the other.
If 18650 cells will physically fit into a device, it could be that using those cells
in a device meant for AA cells may damage the device if it has been
designed for use with AA cells. This is likely to be destructive to
complicated electronics, and I would strongly advise against trying it.

Of course it doesn't. Why compare to an AA cell.
I posted information on Li-ion cells as that's what is in cameras for the last decade and more.
You're talking about AA cells, I don't know why.

18650. I know what it means. 18mm diameter, 65mm long. 0 = cylindrical cell.
14500. 14mm diameter, 50mm long. 0 = cylindrical cell. ie AA cell.

BuckSkin wrote in post #19034253
There is no way to mistake an 18650 for a AA; the 18650 is longer and fatter by quite a bit.

I was not aware that any Canon camera used 18650s; that is interesting to know.

I do have several of those overly rated 18650 like you pictured, not exactly the same brand but most likely made in the same factory; I have a super-bright multi-bulb head-lamp; and, just tonight, I drained three pair from fully-charged to too dim to see between 7:PM and 10:PM while working on my truck. The lamp takes two 18650.

I may get a couple pair of those really good 18650 for those times when having much longer battery duration is important.

Just messing around here and at the barn, it is not the end of the world if I have to switch batteries.

Ever since 1D3, Canon swapped 1D series batteries from 10xAA NiMh cells to 3 x 18650 cell packs.
10D, long before 1D3, used BP-511 Li-Ion and that was used until 50D.

BuckSkin wrote in post #19034253
There is no way to mistake an 18650 for a AA; the 18650 is longer and fatter by quite a bit.

I was not aware that any Canon camera used 18650s; that is interesting to know.

I do have several of those overly rated 18650 like you pictured, not exactly the same brand but most likely made in the same factory; I have a super-bright multi-bulb head-lamp; and, just tonight, I drained three pair from fully-charged to too dim to see between 7:PM and 10:PM while working on my truck. The lamp takes two 18650.

I may get a couple pair of those really good 18650 for those times when having much longer battery duration is important.

Just messing around here and at the barn, it is not the end of the world if I have to switch batteries.

If it looks like this, it's probably OK. The cheapskate build makes it safer.
The 2 x 18650 cells are in parallel. You can confirm this by just putting 1 cell in and it should still work.

With Li-ion cells in parallel you avoid one of the biggest risks , reverse charging.
This happens when 1 cell is depleted before the other (in a series arrangement)

Choderboy wrote in post #19034267
If it looks like this, it's probably OK.

Very similar, except mine has five forward-facing beams, a big one in the middle and two smaller each side of the big one.
Yes, the batteries are parallel.
It is absolutely amazing how bright and how much reach it has for a $10 investment; it has revolutionized my being able to work after dark.
I wouldn't have to be without it for a hundred dollar bill.

I appreciate the explanation as to what 18650 means, as in everything one needs to know about the dimensions is right there in the name; I did not know that before.

As we are talking batteries, way back when I was a wee lad, we had an old-time full service filling station.
Along with all sorts of other goodies, we had a Ray-O-Vac battery rack; you loaded the batteries in the top and they dispensed one-at-a-time out the bottom.
It had only three sizes, A, C, and D; no provision for AA and AAA, in fact, I was a grown man before I knew such existed.
Back then, we sold a lot of "A" batteries; now, I have not even seen an "A" in years.

The biggest seller was "C" ; reason being, we had the only truck-accessible diesel pumps in forty miles and got all the big truck business; bull-haulers, lots of bull-haulers, and those big long "Hot Sticks" took a sack-full of "C" batteries; the business end was hot enough to weld metal; hold the button down and listen to the capacitors whine as they loaded up; get the prongs within half-an-inch of a door-knob and it would "SNAP" with a big blue arc --- they would hold charge indefinitely until the prongs got close enough to something to discharge.