Good Bye to 5D- EOS R5 on the way

I still don't see Canon improving DPAF to the point it can do spot AF and the kind of tracking the 5D4 and 1D series is known for. I hope I am wrong however. I just want to use a camera (mirror or not) that performs like the 5D4 but higher bursts, and if it has even more resolution, great. The EVF doesn't bother me any, so no worries there.

umphotography wrote in post #19003693
Personally feel FPS is very highly over rated. I have been shooting almost 40 yrs. FPS is a nice tool. It gets you a ton of shots. But I rarely shoot anything more than a 5-7 FPS burst. I dont think I have ever held if down on a BIF or any subject Just to get that perfect shot. I have never hit the buffer on my 1Dx2.

I just dont need to see 18 shots in a row to get the one perfect shot....so much culling...I hate to cull

Timing and anticipation goes a lot further than FPS in my opinion. I think photographers really get hung up on FPS....thats not why I buy 1D bodies

BTW....If this new mirrorless is gonna do 20 FPS...you can count of new cards. I dont see any SD or CF thats gonna do 20 FPS

I just did a candle lit BDay celebration in a restaurant/supper club. Surprise Bday party I had zero margin of error to document the facial expression.

In this situation I need to bounce flash. If I used my Sony A73 low light beast with Godox V1 flash I would have had severe AF hunt. I could have simply used a blinding piercing LED light to help my Sony land AF. This is very common complaints with mirrorless events photographers fearing AF hunt in low light.

I used my 5dmk4 in this situation with a 600 EX-RT. I landed every facial expression of surprise with NO loss of shots due to being blurry or AF hunting issues.

In this situation I do not think a new EOS R5 would be my go to camera either simply because it cannot utilize red focus assist. This is why I've kept my Canon 5dmk3/4 for events. This has nothing to do with being stubborn about letting go mirrored bodies. So far in low light dance floor situations or outdoor evening events with little light the red focus beam still is superior to my Sony or Fuji bodies I've used.

If you are into wildlife, landscape or can tolerate missed money shots on Uncle joe's bday party........ I think mirrorless is absolutely amazing. The weakness is that it does not have instant AF in low light with red focus assist. Fast dancing drunk people on the dance floor using max flash sync and even using one shot af-s focus does NOT get blurry images as flash stops action with my 5dmk3/4.

The beauty of mirrorless is that you can use focus peaking and manual focus. This in my opinion is fine when you have luxury of time.

I know a local wedding photog raving about his EOS R replacing a secondary 5dmk4. He then admitted the EOS R didn't keep up and sold it and started to use his 1dxmk2/5dmk4 combo again. He was missing shots in low light due to focus hunt......YUP old school mirrored just doesn't miss AF like mirrorless with bouncing flash.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19003985
I still don't see Canon improving DPAF to the point it can do spot AF and the kind of tracking the 5D4 and 1D series is known for. I hope I am wrong however. I just want to use a camera (mirror or not) that performs like the 5D4 but higher bursts, and if it has even more resolution, great. The EVF doesn't bother me any, so no worries there.

If this is for sports you will very likely be pleased if you went to the Sony side.

I am interested in a new EOS R5 as I'd be pleased using EF glass with an adapter. This is as long as it performs natively.

The fact that I use both Sony and Canon the EOS R5 MUST BE a killer performer for me to consider. Otherwise I'd just buy in the future A74 or current A9mk2.

I have no need to stick with Canon except for low light events photography using mirrored bodies.

The current Sigma 24-70 f/2.8 ART zoom has colours that are not like the Sony colour science I am typically seeing with my other Sony E mount glass!!! For everything that is not hired events related (low light reception/dance floor, pitch dark Halloween events etc) the Sony has really shocked me in low noise, extremely flexible RAW files.

I thought I could let my Canon mirrored bodies go but for my style that would be the worst mistake as an events photographer.

If I am shooting wildlife, sports or automotives, travel, casual jaunts I simply use my Sony system. For portraits I'd actually rather shoot a Fuji GFX100 to be honest. Canon mirrored is really my ONLY goto bodies for events photography.

I do not know many people that can keep up with action when a mirrored body starts to focus hunt. Putting in MF and using focus peaking cannot keep up with a mirrored body using red focus assist in extreme low light conditions!!!!!!

Trey T wrote in post #19003856
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That's excessive amount of statistics ... LOL ... makes me believe that it's a hyper-rare scenario. You'll have to substantiate the claim with your work or at least reference to someone else's...
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I'm sorry, Trey, but I don't really understand what it is that you are asking me to substantiate. . If you could ask again, but maybe with different phraseology, that would be helpful. . I will oblige, to whatever extent I am able.


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AlanU wrote in post #19003993
I just did a candle lit BDay celebration in a restaurant/supper club. Surprise Bday party I had zero margin of error to document the facial expression.

In this situation I need to bounce flash. If I used my Sony A73 low light beast with Godox V1 flash I would have had severe AF hunt. I could have simply used a blinding piercing LED light to help my Sony land AF. This is very common complaints with mirrorless events photographers fearing AF hunt in low light.

I used my 5dmk4 in this situation with a 600 EX-RT. I landed every facial expression of surprise with NO loss of shots due to being blurry or AF hunting issues.

In this situation I do not think a new EOS R5 would be my go to camera either simply because it cannot utilize red focus assist. This is why I've kept my Canon 5dmk3/4 for events. This has nothing to do with being stubborn about letting go mirrored bodies. So far in low light dance floor situations or outdoor evening events with little light the red focus beam still is superior to my Sony or Fuji bodies I've used.

If you are into wildlife, landscape or can tolerate missed money shots on Uncle joe's bday party........ I think mirrorless is absolutely amazing. The weakness is that it does not have instant AF in low light with red focus assist. Fast dancing drunk people on the dance floor using max flash sync and even using one shot af-s focus does NOT get blurry images as flash stops action with my 5dmk3/4.

The beauty of mirrorless is that you can use focus peaking and manual focus. This in my opinion is fine when you have luxury of time.

I know a local wedding photog raving about his EOS R replacing a secondary 5dmk4. He then admitted the EOS R didn't keep up and sold it and started to use his 1dxmk2/5dmk4 combo again. He was missing shots in low light due to focus hunt......YUP old school mirrored just doesn't miss AF like mirrorless with bouncing flash.

This will indeed be the true test especially for wedding and event photographers. I know several Nikon and Canon mirrorless shooters who experience exactly what you have written Alan

The EOS R5 will have to address this concern.

I just dont see a situation where pros will have a camera for flash needs and a camera for everything else

Cliff Mautner, a Nikon ambassador and field tester for Nikon does exactly this. He is forced to put the mirrorless away for receptions. For me, I want 2 bodies that I can PU and use anytime. Im not going to have a camera that I have to use for flash only....Not gonna happen.....my 1Dx2/5D4 combo works perfectly as they are.

If the EOS R5 behaves like an EOS R in low light and for flash needs.....I will likely keep what I have and may update to the 1Dx3.....silent shutter and the new AF system looks very promising.....might just be an A9 killer

umphotography wrote in post #19004282
This will indeed be the true test especially for wedding and event photographers. I know several Nikon and Canon mirrorless shooters who experience exactly what you have written Alan

The EOS R5 will have to address this concern.

I just dont see a situation where pros will have a camera for flash needs and a camera for everything else

Cliff Mautner, a Nikon ambassador and field tester for Nikon does exactly this. He is forced to put the mirrorless away for receptions. For me, I want 2 bodies that I can PU and use anytime. Im not going to have a camera that I have to use for flash only....Not gonna happen.....my 1Dx2/5D4 combo works perfectly as they are.

If the EOS R5 behaves like an EOS R in low light and for flash needs.....I will likely keep what I have and may update to the 1Dx3.....silent shutter and the new AF system looks very promising.....might just be an A9 killer

The likelihood of Canon resolving the AF hunting in low light is very slim. I think this is a big issue with mirrorless technology. I'd call it's the achilles heel that is seriously a big issue for me. Using bounced flash there is no mirrorless system that is on par with mirrored.

When a mirrored body in darkness uses red focus assist it's almost as reliable as any typical camera shooting in good light. Shutter button does NOT hesitate or get slow and lag. Your "sharp" keeper rate will be a good 99% and you have the option to cull photos and sift out the money shots as you will be abundant. I find my Sony I will have more blurry photos and less keeper rate in brutal conditions. I have zero tolerance when every millisecond counts in capturing a moment.

I've taken my sony and used it on family/friend reception party photos where there's a group of people. Please not "NOT HIRED". In low light my Sony A73 embarrassed me severely as I stood there waiting for the AF to lock in AF-C. If I used AF-S and the Godox V1 red focus grid with mirrorless the results are "MEH" as I must roll the dice I get tack sharp images. AF-S in sony world is NOT something I'd use reliably with hired run/gun events using focus/recompose. I've used "one shot" for decades catching extremely high keeper rate using Canon for events.

For bounced flash run / gun events …...sorry I will not MF and use focus peaking using spendy camera hardware or painfully stand there while the lens pumps and struggles in hunting. Pivotal moments and trying to manual focus is a big FAIL as 1-2 seconds too long you fail as a hired photog.

However saying all of that.....if you're a sports shooter or typically shoot in good/adequate light the mirrorless is quite amazing. Low light AF sensitivity specs many manufacturers are pushing harder to get great specs.

Canon's QPAF will likely change how their mirrorless focus in general, and in the dark specifically. Those 83 million focus detectors have to do something good. Put a really fast DIGIC processor behind all of that, and I have no doubt the mirrorless AF system will contend with any Canon DSLR in the future.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19004290
Canon's QDAF will likely change how their mirrorless focus in general, and in the dark specifically.

I'm hopeful. If that is the case I'll experiment and buy an R5.

So far no mirrorless tech at this moment can have the instant shutter speed using bounced flash in low light. My experience with Fuji and Sony is proof to my personal experience.

If I was a sports shooter or fast action I'd definitely be a Sony shooter. No micro adjusting necessary and the a9 and a9mk2 is always in beast mode for AF. But for burst the SD cards so very stupid!!!! The A9 series should do do hardware changes in memory cards like what the 1dxmk3 performs.

Events photography I think I'm just going to buy another 5dmk4 for reasonable MP files and down right solid in AF in all conditions.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19004290
Canon's QPAF will likely change how their mirrorless focus in general, and in the dark specifically. Those 83 million focus detectors have to do something good. Put a really fast DIGIC processor behind all of that, and I have no doubt the mirrorless AF system will contend with any Canon DSLR in the future.

Can you elaborate more about this QPAF technology. I have not heard of this ?

Currently DPAF only uses dual pixel so it is more sensitive to lines in a particular direction. Their patent some a year ago was for Quad Pixel AF sensors, which provides sensitivity in the opposite direction, which totally makes sense and likely is needed to add a new dimension (pun intended) for their mirrorless AF algorithms. AF sensors will now be 2x2 grid instead of just a pair. I guess this is the sensor-level equivalent of a cross-type sensor of the DSLR phase-detect AF system today.

https://petapixel.com …-to-canons-dual-pixel-af/

However as alluded in this article, Canon will likely keep total resolutions down around the 20-26Mpx range due to the design of the QPAF sensor.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19004800
Currently DPAF only uses dual pixel so it is more sensitive to lines in a particular direction. Their patent some a year ago was for Quad Pixel AF sensors, which provides sensitivity in the opposite direction, which totally makes sense and likely is needed to add a new dimension (pun intended) for their mirrorless AF algorithms. AF sensors will now be 2x2 grid instead of just a pair. I guess this is the sensor-level equivalent of a cross-type sensor of the DSLR phase-detect AF system today.

https://petapixel.com …-to-canons-dual-pixel-af/

However as alluded in this article, Canon will likely keep total resolutions down around the 20-26Mpx range due to the design of the QPAF sensor.

So with this rumored 45mp sensor, this likely wont apply. That tells me this is a totally new sensor and technology for this new camera

Its going to be interesting for sure

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19004800
Currently DPAF only uses dual pixel so it is more sensitive to lines in a particular direction. Their patent some a year ago was for Quad Pixel AF sensors, which provides sensitivity in the opposite direction, which totally makes sense and likely is needed to add a new dimension (pun intended) for their mirrorless AF algorithms. AF sensors will now be 2x2 grid instead of just a pair. I guess this is the sensor-level equivalent of a cross-type sensor of the DSLR phase-detect AF system today.

https://petapixel.com …-to-canons-dual-pixel-af/

However as alluded in this article, Canon will likely keep total resolutions down around the 20-26Mpx range due to the design of the QPAF sensor.

I think many would benefit with such a technology for a mirrorless body.

This is where I get torn in the two systems. I've seldom ever get motion blur using one shot mode, bounced flash with red focus assist for events photography. The red beam hitting the subject matter is measurement the canon body sees a reality. The old mirrored system simply uses that calculation and delivers with excellent accuracy. I'd say my recent event last weekend in a low light / candle lit club out of 1200+ images 2 were out of focus due to my error. If I used my Sony I'd have to shoot a lot of manual focus/focus peaking and if I used AF I'd say easily 10% would be oof in that brutal low light condition.

A sports shooter would have different environments. For documenting a game many photogs are at the mercy of light conditions with no flash (I'm assuming). More frames per second also is more normal than a events photographer.

I'm pleased to hear that Canon is finally progressing in the "catchup" to the FF mirrorless world.

For events if there's a high backlit situation and low ambient lighting this is a challenge for a mirrorless body IMO. I've had numerous situations where hunting occurs. I do not think a Quad pixel technology can improve AF much in such conditions. Pull out the 5d class to 5dmk4 mirrored body with red focus assist and you will not have any issues at all. This was the biggest shock to me when I entered the mirrorless world. Such AF hunting was never on my mind shooting an event.

It sounds like the AF, w/o the need of AF assist, on Canon MILC is the best we could've asked, but there's a tiny-tiny-tiny issue w/ shooting in pitch black events. Let's hope the R5 can utilize the existing AF assist from 600ex or 430ex.

Trey T wrote in post #19004835
It sounds like the AF, w/o the need of AF assist, on Canon MILC is the best we could've asked, but there's a tiny-tiny-tiny issue w/ shooting in pitch black events. Let's hope the R5 can utilize the existing AF assist from 600ex or 430ex.

I am truly hoping Quad pixel will be the solution in rock solid AF in low light.

If I was designated zoom/prime shooter using available light...….. I would just use what I use and deal with focus issues.

So far though mirrorless just doesn't meet my needs for events photography when I shoot events. I will buy another 5dmk4 or mk5 unless mirrorless improves to take it's place.

AlanU wrote in post #19004845
I am truly hoping Quad pixel will be the solution in rock solid AF in low light.

If I was designated zoom/prime shooter using available light...….. I would just use what I use and deal with focus issues.

So far though mirrorless just doesn't meet my needs for events photography when I shoot events. I will buy another 5dmk4 or mk5 unless mirrorless improves to take it's place.

If AF assist can be eliminated, then that would be revolutionary beyond believable (for canon that is). Can someone explain why the technology in R or RP can't register the AF assist beam?