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Thread started 12 Feb 2020 (Wednesday) 22:02
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Canon Announces Development of the EOS R5

 
John ­ Sheehy
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Apr 25, 2020 07:53 |  #556

RDKirk wrote in post #19052533 (external link)
Yes, "blackout during exposure" rather than "last image during exposure."

It should be possible to keep the video rolling during exposures, as long as the exposure times are short enough for the second electronic curtain to finish, and there is bandwidth to allow full still resolution readout and video downsampling while the video is rolling. Of course, with longer exposures, you must use either image sustain or blackout (unless the camera stacks the long exposure from shorter ones that are video-speed-friendly).




  
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Capn ­ Jack
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Apr 25, 2020 08:14 |  #557

John Sheehy wrote in post #19052553 (external link)
... there was another exchange in-between. You accused me of having previously said that what I said that the 1D does couldn't be done, which isn't true. What I have actually said in the past that was that I wouldn't expect global shutters to just suddenly appear in the next Canon bodies, in an R-oriented discussion.

It's not going to show up in an R body (although it would be tempting if it did). Smaller sensors have less heat issues regarding noise.

Maybe just dissipating the heat, although cell phones are often kept in a nice, warm pants pocket before being used. I'd be surprised if the R got it too.

John Sheehy wrote in post #19052553 (external link)
That would be nice, but there is often quite a lag between prototypes of new technology and implementation in consumer products. I'd rather consider it a potential surprise than a level of expectation. I have come to expect little in the short term.

The announcement was almost 4 years ago, so they have time to incorporate it by now.

It doesn't need to be a prototype for a long lag to consumer products. I was using production "back thinned" sensors in the last century, what we now call "back illuminated", but they didn't hit the consumer market until after 2010. The Sony a99 II had back illuminated full-frame sensor, and the majority of cell phone cameras also do. It may just be a yield issue when making the sensors, smaller sensors on a wafer means fewer are ruined if the back thinning goes bad.




  
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Apr 25, 2020 09:44 |  #558

Choderboy wrote in post #19052475 (external link)
No, blackout please (instead of the R's shutter stutter)

John Sheehy wrote in post #19052555 (external link)
Yeah; I don't know why anyone would want to have EVF lag extended by a sustained frame. We humans are perfectly adept at gauging timing and location with blackout. We had to evolve to track predators and prey as we or they ran past trees or boulders that periodically blocked our vision. The brain surely does better filling in the blanks, than using static, redundant old information.

RDKirk wrote in post #19052533 (external link)
Yes, "blackout during exposure" rather than "last image during exposure."


Dose not the A9 have no blackout, and folks who use it for sports and wildlife like that attribute.

So whats the differences (pros and cons) of no blackout vs blackout.


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sploo
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Apr 25, 2020 10:37 |  #559

Bianchi wrote in post #19052599 (external link)
So whats the differences (pros and cons) of no blackout vs blackout.

Absolutely zero blackout means you'd constantly see what was happening; even during shooting a burst (ideal). Blackout during each exposure would be less ideal, but as John pointed out, humans aren't bad at "ignoring" that and continuing to track the subject during the blackout periods.

Worst is the R's current behaviour; which displays the image taken during a blackout. It appears to freeze time and messes up your ability to keep following a travelling object as it tricks your brain that nothing's moving.


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Apr 25, 2020 13:59 |  #560

sploo wrote in post #19052622 (external link)
.
Worst is the R's current behaviour; which displays the image taken during a blackout.
.

.
That would be unbelievably annoying, and cost one many, many great images. . I can't believe that Canon would ever design something so freaking stupid.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Charlie
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Apr 25, 2020 14:30 |  #561

Bianchi wrote in post #19052599 (external link)
Dose not the A9 have no blackout, and folks who use it for sports and wildlife like that attribute.

So whats the differences (pros and cons) of no blackout vs blackout.

No blackout is like a video recording, it’s uninterrupted, unlike DSLR or most mirrorless, nothing obstructing your viewfinder ever.


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downhillonwater
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Apr 25, 2020 15:35 |  #562

Canon has obviously put a lot of R&D time and investment into the R5. This project must go back 5 years (at least). I spent my life working in R&D in another high tech industry and will guess that the R5 is behind schedule, likely originally intended to launch with the L trio of zoom lenses. These kinds of major projects never go perfectly. Nevertheless it looks like its going to be a marvelous piece of engineering.

This forums and others seem to have narrowed down a key set of important questions:

1. Autofocus performance. The 1Dx3 feedback in mirrorless is quite positive. So the initial reviews of the R5 will be very interesting, esp the BIF tracking.

2. Stabilization performance. CR guy said a while ago he's seen a video of the R6 IBIS stabilization and that it's excellent. The announcement last week that EF lenses also benefit is a bonus. I assume the RF lenses will significantly outperform EF lenses in this regard.

3. EVF performance. Perhaps the 1Dx3 is a clue here. Presumably, the R5 EVF will perform similarly to the rear screen of the 1Dx3 in mirrorless mode. YouTube videos (e.g. Jared Polin's shooting women's NCAA basketball) look very smooth. What do others that own the 1Dx3 say about this?

4. Buffer capacity. This has been a major 'wow' item for many. In video it's particularly surprising that the camera can perform 8K on-the-fly compression to H.265, a processor intensive task. One possibility is that this will be quite limited due to heat generation (2 min?) but 8K video RAW recording can go until the CF Express card is full (at 80 GB/min for 10 bit 30p if I've calculated correctly). There's been some speculation that Canon is working with Samsung for their chips. This makes a lot of sense. Samsung has world class lithography capabilities and small, energy-sparing transistors will certainly be required for these data rates. Inferring again from 1Dx3, it looks likely that consecutive RAW stills for the R5 will be high capacity. The R5 will be moving roughly 1.7 times as much data as the 1Dx3 at full speed, but the latter seems to have nearly infinite capacity for consecutive RAWs.

5. Price. We should make no mistake that Canon intends to maximize their profitability with this camera. This is a once per decade(s) opportunity. They will use it as a lever to sell RF glass, so profit margin will benefit from both. When the 5D5 launched, for example, the EF glass was out there and buyers of the camera were only buying the camera. In the case of the R5, nearly every buyer will also be making RF lens purchases. The winning equation will be to keep camera price in check and thereby sell lots of profitable glass. The recent video from Canon USA confirms this IMO (yes, they directly refer to the 5D2, but they're dropping a very clear message with no face-saving way to back out).

My two cents. I will am considering buying an R5 and lenses immediately since I'm upgrading from 5d3 and am recently retired and chasing light a lot more often now. If the camera doesn't deliver, I'll switch to Sony. I think the odds heavily favor an R5 purchase, but time will tell.


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RDKirk
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Apr 25, 2020 16:19 |  #563

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19052743 (external link)
.
That would be unbelievably annoying, and cost one many, many great images. . I can't believe that Canon would ever design something so freaking stupid.

.

I'm sure the engineers thought it was clever.

What was stupid was not making it a user customization feature. It should have been child's play to insert the option "Display last image during exposure" or "display blackout during exposure," once they had the capability coded.

I guess they thought it was so clever it needed no usability testing.


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Bianchi
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Apr 25, 2020 16:33 |  #564

sploo wrote in post #19052622 (external link)
Absolutely zero blackout means you'd constantly see what was happening; even during shooting a burst (ideal). Blackout during each exposure would be less ideal, but as John pointed out, humans aren't bad at "ignoring" that and continuing to track the subject during the blackout periods.

Worst is the R's current behaviour; which displays the image taken during a blackout. It appears to freeze time and messes up your ability to keep following a travelling object as it tricks your brain that nothing's moving.


Charlie wrote in post #19052763 (external link)
No blackout is like a video recording, it’s uninterrupted, unlike DSLR or most mirrorless, nothing obstructing your viewfinder ever.

Yes, thats what I thought it meant by no Black out, yet others mentioned they preferred it to have Blackout.

Thanks for your response sploo & Charlie

Yes I can see why the current R is not ideal, sounds like they were trying to create artificial blackout.

Folks using the A9 seem to like the fact that it had no blackout, yet others here sound like they prefer blackout. Perhaps because of how the present R acts with this artificial blackout

Like John, I really never had an issue tracking a fast subject, but I certainly can see the advantage of no blackout for sports and wildlife.


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RDKirk
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Apr 25, 2020 17:48 |  #565

Does the A9 actually produce no cessation whatsoever of imaging to the viewfinder during the exposure? How does it do that?


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Charlie
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Apr 25, 2020 22:05 |  #566

RDKirk wrote in post #19052859 (external link)
Does the A9 actually produce no cessation whatsoever of imaging to the viewfinder during the exposure? How does it do that?

stacked sensor tech

The 1Dx iii reportedly has no blackout as well, however the read rate is slower, so it's possible you can encounter some rolling shutter or banding from LED lights.

go to the end:





I do find that sometimes, it'll drop frames in the viewfinder. Ideally, you should get 120hz the entire time, however, it drops down at times (possibly a bug), it's still way better than blackout, but I think it drops down to 30/60 hz at times rather than a silky smooth 120hz, not to be confused with blackout, screen jutter at times.


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Choderboy
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Apr 26, 2020 00:15 |  #567

Bianchi wrote in post #19052827 (external link)
Yes, thats what I thought it meant by no Black out, yet others mentioned they preferred it to have Blackout.

Thanks for your response sploo & Charlie

Yes I can see why the current R is not ideal, sounds like they were trying to create artificial blackout.

Folks using the A9 seem to like the fact that it had no blackout, yet others here sound like they prefer blackout. Perhaps because of how the present R acts with this artificial blackout

Like John, I really never had an issue tracking a fast subject, but I certainly can see the advantage of no blackout for sports and wildlife.


Preferences in order:
1/ No blackout
2/ Blackout
999/ EOS R stutter shutter.

Real life (ie just using your eyes) blackout scenarios:

No blackout: A pane of high quality perfectly clean glass moves in front of you.

Blackout: Someone walks in front of you, it's easy to find your static subject again, once they are no longer blocking your view. If your subject is moving in a predictable way, it's still easy to find your subject again. If your subject is moving in a non predictable way, you pause your attempt to find subject again until the person no longer blocks your view and then start looking for it again.

EOS R stutter shutter: Someone walks in front of you is holding a magic screen, that shows you the scene just as they blocked your view, it's not easy to tell your eyes and brain to ignore what they are seeing, because after all, it's not real and then difficult trying to judge when the magic screen has dissappeared and you are now looking at reality.


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Choderboy
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Apr 26, 2020 00:20 |  #568

RDKirk wrote in post #19052859 (external link)
Does the A9 actually produce no cessation whatsoever of imaging to the viewfinder during the exposure? How does it do that?

None at all. With shutter sound effect turned off, the only way you know you are taking a photo is the small box around the AF point flashing.


Dave
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Bianchi
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Apr 26, 2020 10:09 |  #569

Choderboy wrote in post #19052996 (external link)
Preferences in order:
1/ No blackout
2/ Blackout
999/ EOS R stutter shutter.

Real life (ie just using your eyes) blackout scenarios:

No blackout: A pane of high quality perfectly clean glass moves in front of you.

Blackout: Someone walks in front of you, it's easy to find your static subject again, once they are no longer blocking your view. If your subject is moving in a predictable way, it's still easy to find your subject again. If your subject is moving in a non predictable way, you pause your attempt to find subject again until the person no longer blocks your view and then start looking for it again.

EOS R stutter shutter: Someone walks in front of you is holding a magic screen, that shows you the scene just as they blocked your view, it's not easy to tell your eyes and brain to ignore what they are seeing, because after all, it's not real and then difficult trying to judge when the magic screen has dissappeared and you are now looking at reality.


Good point about eye's, and how many time one blinks !!!


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sploo
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Apr 26, 2020 10:12 |  #570

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19052743 (external link)
.
That would be unbelievably annoying, and cost one many, many great images. . I can't believe that Canon would ever design something so freaking stupid.

.

I found it quite disconcerting, even though I only shot with one for a day, and not much burst stuff.


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Canon Announces Development of the EOS R5
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