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Thread started 22 Feb 2020 (Saturday) 23:15
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In defense of nude portraiture (SFW)

 
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icor1031
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Feb 22, 2020 23:15 |  #1

The reason that I'm posting this here and not in the glamour section is because I want to be challenged, and I won't be challenged if I'm preaching to the choir.

I wrote this tonight and I'd like to know your thoughts. If you think that I'm wrong, tell me why.

-----

1. The body is beautiful
The body can be very beautiful, in a chaste way. Consider the lines created by a skilled ballet dancer, the geometry of an inexperienced model who copies poses, the curves of a man’s V-shaped torso and a woman’s hourglass-shaped torso, the shadows that outline muscles, and the texture and color of skin.

2. They show the beauty of the model, not her clothing designer.
It’s the model who receives praise for both her natural and achieved beauty, rather than the clothing designer; clothing results in stolen glory.
“What spirit is so empty and blind, that it cannot recognize the fact that the foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful than the garment with which it is clothed?”
-- Michelangelo

4. They (can) promote a realistic view of the body
Since the advent of art, we’ve been able to create unrealistic images of the body. In our day, photoshop has made it possible to take this to an extreme. In still imagery, it seems that we rarely see exposed bodies that haven’t been made unrealistically perfect. If portraits would be shared without first undergoing heavy editing, we’d learn what we can realistically expect not only in a potential partner, but also from ourselves; hopefully, we’d stop being ashamed that our bodies aren’t like the bodies of digitally-rendered models.

3. They strip pretense
Clothing is used as a status marker; it can show superiority, inferiority, or that one is a common man. Interestingly, all of these categories alienate – even the commoner’s attire. They render you unapproachable to those whose status isn’t equal to your own. Nudity gives a form of universality; by default, skin offers no status marker.
And skin never really goes out of style; we’ve always worn it, unlike the outfits we donned in our youth which we now look back upon with embarrassment. Thus, nude portraits are timeless.

4. They can create a unique Edenic effect
When executed well, nude portraits can seem Edenic: pure, calm, and good. It’s not possible to achieve the same effect with clothing, although close to the same effect can—with much difficulty—be produced.
However, consider that near-nudity tends to be quite contrary. Panties either look childish or sexually-suggestive. Jeans are rough and unnatural. Shorts are bland and unfit for the task. Not all clothing is a mismatch, however; for example, some sarongs or other gentle, flowing fabrics may match a scene very well.

5. They offer more variety
A model may indeed find a gentle, flowing outfit which complements her surroundings and appears to be one-with-nature, rather than pretentious. However, some difficulties remain.
First, her portraits will seem very repetitive and boring if she only wears that outfit – especially if she does so across portrait sessions. Second, she’ll likely find it difficult to conceive a plurality of such outfits; and if she does, she may find their attainment to be costly. Third, the photographer may find it difficult to match her clothing to the scene; perhaps he isn’t aware of a scene which matches her outfit, or perhaps he doesn’t know how to match her outfit to a given scene. Skin is simple: it’s light or dark and has a few options of tint. However, clothing has an infinite variety of texture, color, pattern, shade, and combination. By combination, I mean: pairing jeans with a white T-shirt on one instance, and a plaid sweater on the next.

6. They desexualize our response to the body
It’s often argued that the naked body is evil because it produces prurient desire, but this doesn’t seem to be true. Rather, by hiding the body we make it an exciting taboo – and because it’s exposed mostly in sexual contexts (sex, pornography), we nurture inappropriate responses. Artistic exposure may help to counter this deviation.


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Feb 22, 2020 23:39 |  #2

icor1031 wrote in post #19014587 (external link)
The reason that I'm posting this here and not in the glamour section is because I want to be challenged, and I won't be challenged if I'm preaching to the choir.

I wrote this tonight and I'd like to know your thoughts. If you think that I'm wrong, tell me why.

It sounds like you want an argument. Sure, I'll step up. For brevity, I'll make just two points. The first is that I think you're pretty much preaching to the choir in the Gen'l Photography Talk section, too. Has someone here attacked nudity in art?

Point #2:

4. They (can) promote a realistic view of the body
Since the advent of art, we’ve been able to create unrealistic images of the body. In our day, photoshop has made it possible to take this to an extreme. In still imagery, it seems that we rarely see exposed bodies that haven’t been made unrealistically perfect. If portraits would be shared without first undergoing heavy editing, we’d learn what we can realistically expect not only in a potential partner, but also from ourselves; hopefully, we’d stop being ashamed that our bodies aren’t like the bodies of digitally-rendered models.

This seems to apply to people who have more experience looking at pictures than looking at physically present people.


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icor1031
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Feb 22, 2020 23:45 |  #3

OhLook wrote in post #19014596 (external link)
Has someone here attacked nudity in art?

Point #2:
This seems to apply to people who have more experience looking at pictures than looking at physically present people.

1. Not here, no. However, based on my experience with local photographers, it seems common for photographers to disapprove -- even if that viewpoint isn't shared without request.

2. It's models on adverts who (almost completely) expose themselves, not physically present people -- except at the beach.


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Feb 23, 2020 02:30 |  #4

Must admit i find much of the G&N cliché.
Really not much art in it.
I generally agree to the original post.


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Feb 23, 2020 04:09 |  #5
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I don't believe nude work of any kind needs defending. I also believe that not everyone needs to be convinced to believe the way I do, which seems to be the OP's intent. That has never worked in the past. Anywhere. That will never work in the future. Anywhere. In any belief system. Try it with race relations, religion, tobacco, recreational pharmaceuticals, diet, politics, film photography, talk radio, sports, shift work, anything. People are different. Do what you like. Allow me to do what I like.


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Feb 23, 2020 07:58 |  #6

.

I don't think nude portraiture needs any defending. . I have never encountered anyone who has any problem with it. . Maybe back in the 1700s there were some people who disapproved, but certainly not these days, and certainly not in our society. . Why defend something that is not under attack at all?


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Tom ­ Reichner
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Feb 23, 2020 11:13 |  #7

.
I'm just quoting the OP in its entirety, in the case that some of the content is changed or removed.

It's good to have a record of what was said, so that the original content isn't "lost" if the thread starter has a change of heart about putting it out there.
.

icor1031 wrote in post #19014587 (external link)
The reason that I'm posting this here and not in the glamour section is because I want to be challenged, and I won't be challenged if I'm preaching to the choir.

I wrote this tonight and I'd like to know your thoughts. If you think that I'm wrong, tell me why.

-----

1. The body is beautiful
The body can be very beautiful, in a chaste way. Consider the lines created by a skilled ballet dancer, the geometry of an inexperienced model who copies poses, the curves of a man’s V-shaped torso and a woman’s hourglass-shaped torso, the shadows that outline muscles, and the texture and color of skin.

2. They show the beauty of the model, not her clothing designer.
It’s the model who receives praise for both her natural and achieved beauty, rather than the clothing designer; clothing results in stolen glory.
“What spirit is so empty and blind, that it cannot recognize the fact that the foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful than the garment with which it is clothed?”
-- Michelangelo

4. They (can) promote a realistic view of the body
Since the advent of art, we’ve been able to create unrealistic images of the body. In our day, photoshop has made it possible to take this to an extreme. In still imagery, it seems that we rarely see exposed bodies that haven’t been made unrealistically perfect. If portraits would be shared without first undergoing heavy editing, we’d learn what we can realistically expect not only in a potential partner, but also from ourselves; hopefully, we’d stop being ashamed that our bodies aren’t like the bodies of digitally-rendered models.

3. They strip pretense
Clothing is used as a status marker; it can show superiority, inferiority, or that one is a common man. Interestingly, all of these categories alienate – even the commoner’s attire. They render you unapproachable to those whose status isn’t equal to your own. Nudity gives a form of universality; by default, skin offers no status marker.
And skin never really goes out of style; we’ve always worn it, unlike the outfits we donned in our youth which we now look back upon with embarrassment. Thus, nude portraits are timeless.

4. They can create a unique Edenic effect
When executed well, nude portraits can seem Edenic: pure, calm, and good. It’s not possible to achieve the same effect with clothing, although close to the same effect can—with much difficulty—be produced.
However, consider that near-nudity tends to be quite contrary. Panties either look childish or sexually-suggestive. Jeans are rough and unnatural. Shorts are bland and unfit for the task. Not all clothing is a mismatch, however; for example, some sarongs or other gentle, flowing fabrics may match a scene very well.

5. They offer more variety
A model may indeed find a gentle, flowing outfit which complements her surroundings and appears to be one-with-nature, rather than pretentious. However, some difficulties remain.
First, her portraits will seem very repetitive and boring if she only wears that outfit – especially if she does so across portrait sessions. Second, she’ll likely find it difficult to conceive a plurality of such outfits; and if she does, she may find their attainment to be costly. Third, the photographer may find it difficult to match her clothing to the scene; perhaps he isn’t aware of a scene which matches her outfit, or perhaps he doesn’t know how to match her outfit to a given scene. Skin is simple: it’s light or dark and has a few options of tint. However, clothing has an infinite variety of texture, color, pattern, shade, and combination. By combination, I mean: pairing jeans with a white T-shirt on one instance, and a plaid sweater on the next.

6. They desexualize our response to the body
It’s often argued that the naked body is evil because it produces prurient desire, but this doesn’t seem to be true. Rather, by hiding the body we make it an exciting taboo – and because it’s exposed mostly in sexual contexts (sex, pornography), we nurture inappropriate responses. Artistic exposure may help to counter this deviation.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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icor1031
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Post edited over 3 years ago by icor1031. (2 edits in all)
     
Feb 23, 2020 11:22 |  #8

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19014767 (external link)
.

I don't think nude portraiture needs any defending. . I have never encountered anyone who has any problem with it. . Maybe back in the 1700s there were some people who disapproved, but certainly not these days, and certainly not in our society. . Why defend something that is not under attack at all?


.


Tom Reichner wrote in post #19014869 (external link)
.
I'm just quoting the OP in its entirety, in the case that some of the content is changed or removed.

It's good to have a record of what was said, so that the original content isn't "lost" if the thread starter has a change of heart about putting it out there.
.

Very strange behavior. You've never done this with a post of mine in the past, so this one must strike you.

Yet as you said, you've never encountered anyone who has a problem with the topic and you indicated that it's a long-gone 1700s thing.
If that's the case, why then does my post strike you as one that needs to be preserved? You've pretty much stated that it's irrelevant/useless.


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Feb 23, 2020 11:32 |  #9
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Tom and I had a previous thread go off on a tangent I never intended. I deleted my post before he could read/respond to it, after someone else partially quoted me. I understand his point.


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Feb 23, 2020 11:33 |  #10

PentaxShooter wrote in post #19014880 (external link)
Tom and I had a previous thread go off on a tangent I never intended. I deleted my post before he could read/respond to it, after someone else partially quoted me. I understand his point.

Ah, so it has nothing to do with me or the topic; he's just gun shy.

Okay.


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Feb 23, 2020 14:26 |  #11
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icor1031 wrote in post #19014882 (external link)
Ah, so it has nothing to do with me or the topic; he's just gun shy.

Okay.

I don't speak for Tom. Just suggesting a possible explanation.


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Feb 23, 2020 16:38 |  #12

icor1031 wrote in post #19014587 (external link)
The reason that I'm posting this here and not in the glamour section is because I want to be challenged, and I won't be challenged if I'm preaching to the choir.

I wrote this tonight and I'd like to know your thoughts. If you think that I'm wrong, tell me why.

-----
1. The body is beautiful
The body can be very beautiful, in a chaste way. Consider the lines created by a skilled ballet dancer, the geometry of an inexperienced model who copies poses, the curves of a man’s V-shaped torso and a woman’s hourglass-shaped torso, the shadows that outline muscles, and the texture and color of skin...…...

I absolutely agree that the body can be beautiful and I assume you are referring to nude bodies. But then you throw in the word "chaste" and that means many things to many people. This then goes down the road of one person's art is another individual's porn.

So I have no idea what you mean by chaste. Does that mean nude photography without a display of genitals or breasts? It may seem like a silly question but I know people who absolutely feel that way.


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Feb 23, 2020 16:48 |  #13

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19014767 (external link)
I have never encountered anyone who has any problem with it....

I think most people have problems with nude photos. That is why they are almost never seen in the mainstream media, and why there are special rules for G&N here at POTN.

I personally don't have problems with it, but I am discrete with nude pictures because of the views of others.


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Feb 23, 2020 16:49 |  #14

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19014767 (external link)
.

I don't think nude portraiture needs any defending. . I have never encountered anyone who has any problem with it. . Maybe back in the 1700s there were some people who disapproved, but certainly not these days, and certainly not in our society. . Why defend something that is not under attack at all?


.

In general I agree with what Tom is saying here, and I'll even extend that to other traditional forms of artwork like painting, printmaking, sketches, etc. that represent the nude portrait and/or figure. I live in a large metropolitan area with a fairly cosmopolitan view on things, and it's just not a big deal that upsets anybody. Perhaps you are in a small town, everybody knows everybody, religion is strict, and these things are not tolerated.

That being said, I do encounter some exceptions even in my own metropolitan area. I volunteer at a local museum and actively participate on their exhibition committee. We plan shows in various traditional galleries as well as other public and private venues. I have actually run into the following situations where art nudity is not permitted:

1. LIBRARIES - They are very up-front in their rules regarding NO NUDES. This makes sense as there are young children always present.

2. RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS or Galleries associated with them. Again, their rules. Very often the orthodox of any religious group are offended by nudity for a variety of reasons. I get it....not my particular religion but I respect theirs.

As Tom said though, I don't feel a need to defend it either. As much as I admire the beauty of a nude model in a well done photograph it doesn't mean a whole lot to me. IMO there are other more interesting and challenging things for me to photograph.


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Feb 23, 2020 16:53 |  #15

Without going point by point there are counter arguments for nearly every one. Where you say it promotes a realistic view of the body, it can be argued that's only true if a representative sampling of humans are photographed and that certainly isn't true. The ratio of unrealistically thin and attractive models is higher if for no other reason than self selection.

You say it strips pretense but I can't think of too many things more pretentious than a nude instagram style model.

You say it desexualizes. That sword can cut both ways see playboy or any other men's magazine for the counter argument.

Nudes are a classic subject, neither good nor bad but simply what you make of it. Trying too hard to justify it or over intellectualize it is pointless.




  
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In defense of nude portraiture (SFW)
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