Camera club competitions most shots look like watercolors

moose10101 wrote in post #19023507
"Photographing for points" has always seemed to me to be a way to gradually make your photographs look like the other members' images. If that's what you want, that's okay. From a technical perspective, it may be a good exercise, if you're getting specific feedback as well as a score.

Most of my subject matter doesn't have the exacting technical requirements that a great wildlife photo has, and isn't what you'd usually find at a club competition (none of the photos at your club's link resemble any of mine). I've managed to find a few people who understand what I'm trying to do and can provide useful feedback to help me get there. Even when I don't agree with them, their comments help me see my photos more clearly. For you, a few of those people might be responding in this thread. You might find one or two more in the club.

If you enjoy the competitions, by all means keep doing them. But listen for the individual voices that can make the biggest difference in your work.

This is so true. I have a lot of friends who "study for the test," or I should say shoot for score, which can be a good thing if that's your goal.

And when you say "listen for the individual voices that can make the biggest difference," that is critical. Anytime I get called for judging we are also required to critique the work in front of an audience of 40-75 people. We have to put our money where our mouth is. It's easy to anonymously input a score but then we have to constructively support our decisions. I learn a lot listening to my fellow judges. Many have keen insight and we routinely "steal" from each other. What's that old saying, amateurs borrow, professionals steal? And sometimes we don't always agree which results in spirited discussion.

What happens though as others have pointed out is that a lot of work tends to look the same from club to club. This is normal. It sort of "evolves" with the concept of how the people in the club feel their competition images should look, or what so-and-so is doing, etc. People like to experiment, and for them it is doing something for the first time. That gives a lot of people satisfaction which is one of the reasons we all shoot. The downside is that you see little work that conceptually pushes the envelope, comes up with really unique concepts or visualizations. A lot of folks don't understand that. Sometimes I'm one of those people but it makes me think and stimulates me to think in different directions.

IMO an excellent person who is pretty fantastic in his approach is Allen Bourgeois, AKA: Airfrogusmc .

Allen has been regularly posting for years, has an incredible eye for transforming the mundane, demonstrates wonderful technical mastery and is one of the best street photographers I've seen. Cartier Bresson is one of his muses and I can see why. I have Allen's most recent b/w book and it is beautifully done. His images are well thought out and his terrific sense of timing has created some fascinating juxtapositions of elements. This is why his work is so effective. DISCLAIMER: Allen didn't pay me to say this....I'm just impressed with his work

moose10101 wrote in post #19023507
[In the context of photo clubs:] I've managed to find a few people who understand what I'm trying to do

That's my experience at POTN. It seems that if your goal is to produce detailed images of faraway birds, you play to a large audience, much larger than if you seek out interesting compositions of ordinary objects as you walk around a city. I'm not knocking the bird people; it's just that having a minority interest means less feedback and guidance.

From the Stony Brook site:

March 19th - "Getting the Most Out of Photo Competition" present by David Marshak, Tony Mistretta and Jim West

• Think like a judge: how to take, choose, and present your image for best competition results
  
• Specific considerations for competing in Prints
  
• Categories and rules…what you really need to know
  
• A look at winning (and non-winning) images
  
• Technical considerations such as monitor calibration, soft proofing for prints and color/exposure settings.
  

Thanks George - yep, that's pretty typical in what we see with judging around my neck of the woods. Every now and then the Clubs even have "Judging Schools." since judges are hard to come by, and many don't understand why people judge the way they do.

AZGeorge wrote in post #19023539
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From the Stony Brook site:

Think like a judge: how to take, choose, and present your image for best competition results
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I have a problem with this .... specifically, the "take" part.

If someone's sole objective in taking photographs is to place well in a competition, then I guess this makes sense. . But I think that placing well in a competition is a rather shallow objective, and is not what photography, or artistic expression, is about.

Photography is an art form, and artistic expression is about the artist exploring his/her own way of expressing that which has deep meaning to him/her, and what he/she is passionate about. . The artist has something meaningful to say, and finds a way to say it with their imagery. . Hence, telling people what to take pictures of and how to take the pictures , based solely on how to score highly in a competition, seems to fly in the face of what photography is supposed to be about.

But I do see merit to instructing others how to choose and present for a competition. . That, of course, is also a part of artistic expression, but unlike the picture-taking itself, it can be done over and over again, depending on the purpose of each presentation, and therefore should be be tailored for each given opportunity to present an image.


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Tom Reichner wrote in post #19023520

moose10101 wrote in post #19023507
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I've managed to find a few people who understand what I'm trying to do and can provide useful feedback to help me get there. Even when I don't agree with them, their comments help me see my photos more clearly.
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I find this kind of thing very interesting ..... where one photographer's thoughts about an image are different than another's. . I am also interested in the phrase, "what I'm trying to do", as it indicates that you have a clear objective that you are looking to fulfill with the image.
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Here's another thing to consider: of the few people I rely on for feedback, only one is a serious photographer; the others are not involved in the arts. But the non-photographers are quite capable of explaining why they think an image works or doesn't, or how they think a composition might be improved.

My images tend toward the abstract, which is a big reason why I'm not a fit for club competitions. I can PM you a recent example that I'm not quite ready to share widely; it took a while to settle on the final iteration, and I'm still "living with it" for a while before I'm sure it's the one. Interestingly, no two viewers had the same opinion when presented with a set of compositions, but all of the feedback was valuable.

moose10101 wrote in post #19023710
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My images tend toward the abstract, which is a big reason why I'm not a fit for club competitions. I can PM you a recent example that I'm not quite ready to share widely .....
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Yes, that would be great! . I would enjoy seeing what it is that you've been working on.

However, I don't think that the forum software facilitates the sending of any kind of image file via PM. . So we'll have to find another way to get it from you to me. . My email is tomreichner@yahoo.com ..... or you could send it to me via Messenger at Tom Reichner.


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moose10101 wrote in post #19023710
Here's another thing to consider: of the few people I rely on for feedback, only one is a serious photographer; the others are not involved in the arts. But the non-photographers are quite capable of explaining why they think an image works or doesn't, or how they think a composition might be improved.

My images tend toward the abstract, which is a big reason why I'm not a fit for club competitions. I can PM you a recent example that I'm not quite ready to share widely; it took a while to settle on the final iteration, and I'm still "living with it" for a while before I'm sure it's the one. Interestingly, no two viewers had the same opinion when presented with a set of compositions, but all of the feedback was valuable.

We do have an abstract section here and folks have posted some pretty interesting work. I subscribe to it and always enjoy seeing what people come up with. I would give us a try

sapearl wrote in post #19023797

moose10101 wrote in post #19023710
Here's another thing to consider: of the few people I rely on for feedback, only one is a serious photographer; the others are not involved in the arts. But the non-photographers are quite capable of explaining why they think an image works or doesn't, or how they think a composition might be improved.

My images tend toward the abstract, which is a big reason why I'm not a fit for club competitions. I can PM you a recent example that I'm not quite ready to share widely; it took a while to settle on the final iteration, and I'm still "living with it" for a while before I'm sure it's the one. Interestingly, no two viewers had the same opinion when presented with a set of compositions, but all of the feedback was valuable.

We do have an abstract section here and folks have posted some pretty interesting work. I subscribe to it and always enjoy seeing what people come up with. I would give us a try

Thanks! I’ve posted images in several “sharing” threads. If you click on my ID, you should see a link to my gallery.

I guess I would have to say I shoot for myself as well as my wife. For example she loves birds that are looking quizzical or with funny expressions so I tend to look for that.

I remember a judge telling someone whose shot he was critiquing you have to shoot for competition, it is different that shooting for yourself or a client.

To paraphrase Ansel Adams "there are assignments from within and assignments from without" I guess many people at clubs do the assignment from without, i.e. to please the judges. I shoot for my internal vision, assignments from within. For example the train conductor picture, being a train nut (affectionato [Sp]), I like it as while it is a view that "everyone sees" it makes me feel like I have just gotten off the train after a hard days work and look back at the train about to leave the station, the conductor is watching to make sure the way is clear. Do I have a vision for every image, for the most part yes, I can't always express it but it is there. Some are to document birds or animals I have seen others are to document places I have been and often those are also to help me feel a certain mood. For example remembering a quiet evening at the Gettysburg Military Park.

Jeff USN Photog 72-76 wrote in post #19023838
I guess I would have to say I shoot for myself as well as my wife. For example she loves birds that are looking quizzical or with funny expressions so I tend to look for that.

I remember a judge telling someone whose shot he was critiquing you have to shoot for competition, it is different that shooting for yourself or a client.

To paraphrase Ansel Adams "there are assignments from within and assignments from without" I guess many people at clubs do the assignment from without, i.e. to please the judges. I shoot for my internal vision, assignments from within. For example the train conductor picture, being a train nut (affectionato [Sp]), I like it as while it is a view that "everyone sees" it makes me feel like I have just gotten off the train after a hard days work and look back at the train about to leave the station, the conductor is watching to make sure the way is clear. Do I have a vision for every image, for the most part yes, I can't always express it but it is there. Some are to document birds or animals I have seen others are to document places I have been and often those are also to help me feel a certain mood. For example remembering a quiet evening at the Gettysburg Military Park.

Hosted photo: posted by Jeff USN Photog 72-76 in
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forum: General Photography Talk

Shoot for yourself - exactly right. Photography is an artform so shoot to express yourself first.

I was a member of a photography group where we had contests each month and different judges were used at each event. Three judges, some pro photogs, others in advertising, etc. and I was amazed when someone's image of a pine tree in the middle of the frame came back with one judge's comment "Wish this composition was not dead centered" while another judge commented "Love how you split the scene with the tree in the middle". Bottom line: Take constructive criticism to heart, to see what you can learn from others, but shoot for yourself first!

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19023544
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But I think that placing well in a competition is a rather shallow objective, and is now what photography, or artistic expression, is about.

Couldn't agree more.

Reminds me very much of rock climbing and the fact that they even have competitive 'rock climbing'. The whole point seems to be lost on these people.

So while there will be people that going out and take pictures specifically to try to win competitions, I think they are missing (at least what I think) is the main point of engaging in photography.

On a related note, this video was recently posted by Zack Arias about his experience as both participant and judge in Photography competitions.
https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=kcxcGBbLIwk

One of the clubs I judged for rotated the judging between the professional photographers in town. Luckily for a town of 100,000 population that was also a state Capitol we had a diverse group to choose from including photojournalists from an award winning paper, commerical photographers, portrait and wedding photographers and staff photographers from numerous state agencies. That variety kept the judging fresh as each of the volunteer judges were only called on no more than 2 times a year. They used 2 judges for their monthly competition and 3 for their salon competition every 6 months. They made a point of having the judges comment on the top 3-5 images in each category describing why we scored each image as we did. Generally the judges used a similar criteria but sometimes the judges would split on an image.

The hardest part of the judging was the long break between the end of judging and the program. Over cookies the members would ask about the images that were less successful. Sometimes it's hard to say anything encouraging about an image to an earnest and enthusiastic photographer who has no discernible talent. You just have be encouraging and point them to resources. That why I like participating here, you can help break down an image and help someone in a methodical way that you can't in that setting.

The goals people have for doing an activity can be developed from many reasons, and "the love of" or the "the passion of" is just one of those, equally righteous to the "I want to win with" or "I want to make money with" goal. It is just good for all of us that people have any kind of photographic goal, whether it is to make art, to please themselves, to build revenue, or to win a competition.

Your goals and others do not have to align, but nobody's goal is better than another. Goals exist to drive us to an activity and develop a means to an end. I will never fault anyone that wants to take photos to win a competition (to please others), nor would I fault anyone that just wants to take the most perfect sharpest image of some subject material to serve their self-indulgence. Kudos to both for getting gear and trying their hand at capturing a moment or subject.

All of this keeps attention on photography, which in turn drives manufacturers to create newer and better tools, which then in turn just feeds the cycle over and over again. We all win, no matter the reasons one sticks a camera to their eye and snaps images.

Ironically, when one says "they take photos for the art of it", art in its very nature is for the beholder, not the creator. So if you are into photography for the art, it can only be art if others are shown that work and they evaluate it. Add potential rewards for the tally of the votes of those that observe your work, and you have a competition.