question of reach

jimmy_racoon wrote in post #19035198
great point, John
over-cropping is my problem, as filling the frame gets tough on certain species...
(been experimenting with portable blinds and patience to solve for that aspect)

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/2iHj​roE in the blind by James Stewart, on Flickr
Thanks for your thoughts

Someone on the forum had recently posted a SIGMA 500mm f/4.5 EX in the marketplace,. no IS, but lighter weight than the Canon version 1 and certainly should cost less. If you can afford a used Canon though...

BirdsofBC wrote in post #19035976
owned at least 1/2 dozen Canon DSLR's. the 7D was by far the camera i owned for the shortest amount of time.

Thank you, BirdsofBC
Looks like it's time to move up the chain...

time to upgrade the 7D Mk1...

is it still worth getting a 7D Mk2 today?
(I am fine with used)

or is there a Canon alternative today that is better for birds in flight?
(Have also considered 1D MkIV)

thanks

I like the 5D IV I recently purchased. Its worth the money.
Normally I choose lens purchase over a camera body every time. My lens collection is pretty much complete for now.
I upgraded my camera body a little to improve overall performance this year.
I personally went with a somewhat higher performance and mega pixels body so I can edit, print or display them a little better.
One big reason I chose to purchase new is the option to add a Care Pak.
Simply put I can relax and take a lot of photos.
I have noticed that several photos where I was able to get closer on foot to the subject or bird were much better quality than when zoomed in from a distance.

jimmy_racoon wrote in post #19139147
time to upgrade the 7D Mk1...

is it still worth getting a 7D Mk2 today?
(I am fine with used)

or is there a Canon alternative today that is better for birds in flight?
(Have also considered 1D MkIV)

thanks

Depends on what you favor for ergonomics and how close to the birds you will be. The 1DIV and 7D2, used, are excellent birding bodies even today. With birding, a really good lens makes a huge impact compared to simply pushing into a newer sensor. The 7D however is something that could be improved upon with any of the aforementioned bodies or newer though, significantly, especially with regards to noise and the filters. A used 500 F4L for example would be a significant gain in every way for this purpose, if you needed reach and speed. A newer body will help with AF and dynamic range, noise, etc, but if you're cropping down to a few hundred or few thousand pixels, you'll want more reach anyways.

How you bird matters too. For example, is it all about high FPS? Or is it about having a wider FOV to allow for an easier time tracking a species at close range? Do you unleash the full FPS on your camera or do you just do small short bursts of 3, instead of just rattling off 30~50 shots or until the buffer is full? Are you doing signifcant post processing (shadow lifting, etc) from RAW or are you shooting JPG? Shooting in full sun or overcast or low light often?

For Canon's used options that are not obscene, at this point you have:

7D2
1DIV
90D
1DX

After that things get spicy with price, depending on what you're doing. And if you're willing to drop over $2k on a camera, I would argue that the $2k is better spent on a 500 F4L lens instead and go with a less expensive body.

Very best,

jimmy_racoon wrote in post #19035103
Thank you, Jake.
I was leaning toward the 7D2 and it helps to know you have owned both and support this as an upgrade due to 7D1 limitations.
Since image quality is my goal, perhaps the 1.4x is not the direction for me.
Cheers.

Is "image quality loss" relevant, though, when capturing a subject?

Many people talk about the "IQ" with a TC in such a way that is only directly relevant if you back 1.4x or 2x as far away from the subject whenever you use it, which is a completely different thing than using it because otherwise you would need to crop harder for your final image, which is more likely the case in most situations.

Canon 1.4x TCs and even many 3rd-party ones do not cause any subject quality loss that you can see; only stepping farther away from the subject does.

What you do have to think about is AF. Raising the f-number of the open aperture impedes AF to some degree, from barely perceptible AF speed reduction to total failure, depending on the system.

The quality of your subject in focal-length-limited situations in any given lighting starts with your optics (pupil size, or focal length divided by open f-number, primarily), distance from the subject, and the size of the subject. Beyond that, the focal length and pixel density dictate pixels-on-subject.

Sorry for the double-reply. I didn't realize that I had already replied to this same post already.

jimmy_racoon wrote in post #19035106
Glad to hear, duckster
I generally shoot handheld with centerpoint focus and work on my technique for BIF.
Unless I have plentiful light, the 7D also lets me down in terms of image noise.
In those cases I switch to the 5D2 and crop as needed.
Thanks for the feedback.

I don't know how you are viewing and comparing your results, but I have owned both the 7D and 5D2 at the same time, and the 7D had less noise than a 1.6x crop from the 5D2 at all ISOs and tonal levels. Only at 100% pixel views did the 5D2 look cleaner, but they are irrelevant in focal-length-limited situations. You need to fill the frame of the 5D2 to get less noise at the same ISO and tonal levels, and that of course requires different optics and shallower DOF, and has nothing to do with what is thought of as "limited reach". Even using the entire frames at the same ISO, the 5D2 started to get worse than the 7D2 above ISO 6400, with the 5D2's horizontal banding noise getting obvious in shadows, especially in shade or incandescent light.

jimmy_racoon wrote in post #19139147
time to upgrade the 7D Mk1...

is it still worth getting a 7D Mk2 today?
(I am fine with used)

or is there a Canon alternative today that is better for birds in flight?
(Have also considered 1D MkIV)

thanks

The 7d2 i a better option than the 1d4. At this point your options for upgrade really come down to the 7d2 or the 90d. My buddy and I took different paths on this. I wanted a crop option to supplement my 1dx for shooting birds and picked up a used 7d2 in nearly new condition. My buddy upgraded his 70d to a 90D. We are boh happy but there are differences. The 7D2 has essentially the same focusing system as the 1dx but only 20mp. The 90d has fewer focus point (45 v 65) but has 30 mp and still focuses well. The 7D2 wins with better weather sealing but otherwise its a tie when it comes down to other features. I'd like the extra megapixels and he would like the more robust focusing system, but to anon has decided its not an option.

One thing I considered and you might. Is the the 5ds. 50mp let's you crop a lot and still get your shot.

First of all, I want to thank all the members for their previous responses as well as: vision35, MalVeauX, John Sheehy, & gonzogolf for the latest feedback when decision time was near. Many, many thanks, all!

I have located a near-mint 7D2 that arrives this week at a fantastic price.

Can't wait to take full advantage of the weather-sealing and autofocus capabilities as winter birding season approaches!!

For now it will primarily paired with the 400mm f/5.6 prime.

Cheers!

I owned the 7D, did not go to the 7DII because of the noise of the mark I (once bitten, twice shy). I went to the 6D. I own the 400mm F/5.6, and I also love it. I'm not sure that lens will play well with the 1.4x, but I could be wrong. Plus, now you're working with F/8.

If I was only shooting birds/wildlife, I'd go with the 7DII. You are shooting birds during the day so noise should not be a factor. I know it's more $$$, but maybe look at the 90D?

Good to hear! There are many videos on youtube on how to set up your 7D2, especially for action,.birds, etc. The 7D2 isn't as good as a FF like the 6D* or the 5D4 for noise, but I shoot at 1600 iso all the time, and have gone much higher with acceptable results. I think you will love the camera!

Post processing means a lot. Teamspeed here has original 7Ds & he completely removes the noise, he's great at PP.

Scrumhalf wrote in post #19140995
Good to hear! There are many videos on youtube on how to set up your 7D2, especially for action,.birds, etc. The 7D2 isn't as good as a FF like the 6D* or the 5D4 for noise, but I shoot at 1600 iso all the time, and have gone much higher with acceptable results. I think you will love the camera!

Thanks for the recommendations!
(I still have some funds left, so maybe I'll update my 5D2 to a 3 or 4 for those low light situations...)
Like to get the best glass I can afford, with less focus on camera body, unless tackling a specific situation such as birds in flight.
With the snow and clouds moving in, I'm sure noise will continue to be a challenge!

Pigpen101 wrote in post #19140998
Post processing means a lot. Teamspeed here has original 7Ds & he completely removes the noise, he's great at PP.

Wonder what his secret is...all I use is an old version of Lightroom 5 on a MacBook Pro.
Thanks

Feel free to PM him, he's more than happy to share his techniques. If you search his gallery (especially basketball) he uses the 7D at ISOs around 3200 or higher & you can't tell from his photos. I refused to set my 7D higher than 1600,& even then is was terrible.