Capture 1 VS LR

Mathmans wrote in post #19054829
Check this from DxO forum from one of DxO stuff:
'' ... as you already may know we don’t apply all correction when zoom is lower than 70%. Saturation management is part of it, when zoom is like 25% display of image is simplified for a problem of performance and then complex saturated part of image (when area is not homogenous like her for example) are not correct but when you zoom in you will get same display as exported image.... ''

Looks like when image is ''fit on screen'' you don't see accurate colors in Photolab.
Only when you zoom 70% or more you see true colors as they are.
WTF

You would have to have a similarly problematic image to the one in that thread, with the regular matrix of colored LEDs, to see exactly what is going on - there are a lot of things that can affect how the LED matrix in that image is rendered in a scaled preview. The "saturation" management that is referred to in the response is probably the "protect saturated colors" control that DXO offers - you can turn it down to 0 if you want. I do not think the upshot of the thread to which you linked is that DXO does not display color accurately at lower magnification levels - however, there may be exceptional cases where a portion of the image is not rendered accurately until you zoom above 75%, the zoom level where DXO corrections that are more intensive get rendered fully.

As I understand there is a problem with performance. That’s why DxO simplifies previews. You can’t see lots of things if image is ''fit on screen''. The most annoying thing is blurry previews. If image is not zoomed in to 75% preview is not sharp. There are also other things you can’t see unless you zoom in the image. And now it looks like they’re also simplifying colors.

They say Photolab needs to do a lot of calculations that’s why simplified previews.
So; other RAW converters I have don’t need to do calculations? When I switch from image to image in Photolab the circle in bottom right corner spins for 3 seconds before I get a preview with all corrections I’ve done.
Photolab needs optimization and that’s a fact. Photolab is slow.
If my comp can drive Lightroom 9.1 Classic without a lag and it can also drive Capture One 20 Pro without a lag I assume there is a problem with Photolab.

I do not know what "simplifying colors" means in any meaningful way, in terms of one's ability to edit an image. It is not clear from the thread that was linked what it means either. Like I said, there are a lot of reasons why the matrix on that sign in the thread could be rendered incorrectly when not previewed at 100%. That does not mean that colors are being "simplified" at magnifications below 75% - it could be something as straightforward as the downsampling used at lower magnifications.

Are you having trouble with color in DXO? If you are using a color-managed workflow, and your final image has color shifts compared to the preview in the DXO application, that is definitely a problem regardless of the magnification level DXO uses to threshold its more intense processing. If you eliminate your workflow and equipment as a potential source of the issue, then you should file a tech report with DXO.

DXO is a somewhat quirky application and definitely does a lot of automagic processing, so tracking down a specific cause of a specific issue may be a nightmare.

Here is a fun experiment - take a well-exposed shot of a colored LED (like the display on a digital clock, or the indicator lights on a hard drive or something similar) - open that raw image in all of the raw conversion applications that you use and see how they all render that very challenging image.

kirk

Like I wrote before; I use 4 Raw converters and I like Photolab the most. But it’s not perfect and some things could be done better.
At the moment four things bothers me the most in DxO Photolab.
First is blurry preview when image is ‘’fit on screen’’. For me it’s annoying to develop the image if I can’t see it sharp. Yes; you could see sharp image when zoom to 75% or more but I can’t develop my RAW files zoomed in to 75%. All the other RAW converters can give me sharp previews. I just can’t understand why Photolab can’t. I just don’t understand.
Second … Selective tone sliders. I still don’t understand why the hell shadows slider needs to affects midtones. Why Highlights slider affects more midtones then highlights and why Blacks slider needs to affects shadows.
The third thing is slowness. My computer is a few years old but it can drive all other RAW converters without a lag. Why do I need to wait 2 or 3 seconds before Photolab chooses to give me a preview with all settings I’ve done. Why I need to look at this f*****g spinning circle for 2 or 3 seconds before I can see my image with all settings I’ve done. Those programmers should sit on their asses and do some serious look at Photolab core and make it more efficient. Why do I need to look at this f*****g spinning circle for 2 or 3 seconds waiting Photolab to change preview when I move each slider.
Foutrh thing …. more control over the export sharpness not just Bicubic and Bicubic sharper.

All those ‘issues’ I’ve mentioned are well known on DxO forum. Looks like they are on the list waiting for an improvement but nobody knows when …. perhaps Photolab 9 or 10?
No wonder people are switching from Lightroom to Capture One instead Photolab. No wonder.

By the way; here are those led lights in three RAW converters:
https://feedback.dxo.c​om/t/changing-of-colors/12840/21

Yes - I saw the screenshot comparing the preview renderings at some reduced magnification in different raw converters - there are many reasons why each application renders that problematic area differently.

I know that many folks have complained about the aspects of DXO that you list - i guess their priorities are elsewhere, I don't know what to tell you. Bicubic and Bicubic Sharper are interpolation/resampli​ng algorithms, not output sharpening. If each move of a slider is triggering a 2-3 second delay in your display refreshing, that is a problem that is not normal. You should contact technical support. Even when I used older versions of DXO Optics Pro and PhotoLab, on 3-4 year old laptops with large raw images (like Canon 5DIV, etc.) I would never experience a redraw or refresh lag, let alone with a spinning beachball (various Macs with various OS versions over the years). Do you experience the same lag when editing non-raw (demosaic'ed) images of the same pixel dimensions in DXO?

Sounds like it is frustrating you, I can understand.

kirk

Hi kirkt;
Yes; Photolab is not as responsive as other RAW converters I have. My comp is not new (Win 10 64bit; i7-4770-3.4GHz; 16GB RAM) but I guess it’s good enough if it can drive Capture One, Lightroom , Photoshop and On1 without a lag.
On the link below you can find other users with the same problem:
https://feedback.dxo.c​om …e-performance-speed/12561
I’ll wipe Photolab completely from my comp and reinstall it to see, if this will make a difference. Could be something went wrong at installation.

About sharpness of exported jpegs….
Example: A few months ago I was shooting local event. They wanted small jpegs - 1024 long edge to save space on local server.
I have tried to export directly from Photolab. ‘Bicubic’ gave me unsharp jpegs and with ‘Bicubic sharper’ most exported jpegs were oversharpened.
At the end I just exported TIFF files to Photoshop and first done the resize and then I applied Unsharp mask as much as needed.

My I ask how do you control the sharpness of exported jpeg files if you export directly from Photolab to disk?

I read people do it via Lens Sharpness while others export to something like PS or Affinity to finish.

To adjust output sharpness of exported jpeg with Lens sharpness is somehow cumbersome. First export and then check jpeg and if sharpness is not OK adjust Lens sharpness again and export again and check again?
Is this how Photolab users do this?

Funny thing is if I export from Lightroom with output sharpening ‘’screen and standard’’ all jpegs look OK.

Mathmans wrote in post #19055814
To adjust output sharpness of exported jpeg with Lens sharpness is somehow cumbersome. First export and then check jpeg and if sharpness is not OK adjust Lens sharpness again and export again and check again?
Is this how Photolab users do this?

Funny thing is if I export from Lightroom with output sharpening ‘’screen and standard’’ all jpegs look OK.

Yes that is cumbersome. That is what I read several times. I’m not a DXO expert and I can’t see another way outside of sending it to another developer. When I use it I send it to LR for export. One reason why I don’t use it unless I need to. Kirk may have the answer.

LR’s export page/process is right up there for IQ. It works with the Detail panel settings to optimize printing. Takes a lot of guesswork out of it.

I sharpen at final resolution, so I only add some capture sharpening, if any, during raw conversion. It is a little difficult to predict the result of image size reduction and output sharpening combined during raw conversion at a specific output size without some experimentation- I use bicubic interpolation/resampli​ng for size reduction and then sharpen after for whatever output device.

I beta test for DXO but do not actually use it very often having switched to Fujifilm systems - DxO only supports my GFX 50s and my Ricoh GR.

Kirk

Capture sharpening = Lens Sharpness for DXO terminology? If you sharpen after do you mean using different software?

I’m also saving this info in case I use DXO full time one day. It would be good if DXO adds more advanced export options.

’' It is a little difficult to predict the result of image size reduction and output sharpening combined during raw conversion at a specific output size … ‘’

Exactly. I agree 100%.
If you resize and export from RAW converter directly to disk you don’t know how the image will look like until you check it – it means you need to open the image with an image viewer and check it for sharpness.
For more important photos I always export from Photolab (or other RAW converter) to Photoshop. In Photoshop I first resize and then I sharpen the image and check at 100%. Sometimes I sharpen only parts of the image (selective sharpening).
I guess this is the only way to have 100% control over final sharpness of the exported image.

Mathmans wrote in post #19056017
’' It is a little difficult to predict the result of image size reduction and output sharpening combined during raw conversion at a specific output size … ‘’

Exactly. I agree 100%.
If you resize and export from RAW converter directly to disk you don’t know how the image will look like until you check it – it means you need to open the image with an image viewer and check it for sharpness.
For more important photos I always export from Photolab (or other RAW converter) to Photoshop. In Photoshop I first resize and then I sharpen the image and check at 100%. Sometimes I sharpen only parts of the image (selective sharpening).
I guess this is the only way to have 100% control over final sharpness of the exported image.

It took 3 trials before I finally decided to get LR. I could not stand not seeing the image before final export. It took a who to adjust to that even if there are only several choices. Too many years of using PS as you described.

By the way this a a good thread. Good info and thanks for participating everyone.