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Thread started 24 Jun 2020 (Wednesday) 14:56
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I reckon I just don't get it.

 
Levina ­ de ­ Ruijter
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Jun 26, 2020 15:48 |  #31

gjl711 wrote in post #19084131 (external link)
Exactly, I am sure that for the artist it has meaning based on his/her personal experiences and emotions. I do not have the same personal experiences and emotions thus for me, all I can do is look at it and try to assign some meaning based on my personal experiences and emotions or try to guess what the artist what thinking. Basically, assigning some random meaning to the work based on something I can make up. For me it is no better than the scrawling my 3 year old does which does have meaning to me as I was sitting there with her as she did her scrawling and listened to her story. You would look at her drawings and say.. It looks like the random scrawling of a three year old because you don't know her and were not there. You might try to assign meaning to it, but you would just be making up your own story. With this kind of art all I can do is look at it and say "I like it" or "does nothing for me".

So you basically think that in order to understand abstract art, you have to have lived through the same experiences etc. as the artist? Really?

See, I think that we, human beings, are pretty much the same. We all have the same emotions, the same (existential) fears, the same hopes. Such is the human condition. So although I have not lived through the horrors of the **** camps, I can still recognise the emotions and fears in Kupferman's painting as they are fundamentally human and so they resonate in me.

Clearly not everybody has the same taste and/or understanding of art and it's okay for you to not like the Kupferman painting. I'm not asking you to. What I do object to is dismiss it the way you do, and even ridicule it as not being any better than the scribblings of a toddler. I don't quite understand this kind of opinion, but more important, the artist does not deserve that. In any case it is clear that you just don't get it. Why not leave it at that?


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Jun 26, 2020 16:01 |  #32

I wonder what I would have said about the painting if Levina hadn't introduced it by telling about the artist and his life experiences. Clearly not that it suggested a leisurely afternoon picnic in a grassy meadow. There's brutality there, but how specific?


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Jun 26, 2020 16:28 |  #33

I am neither dismissing nor ridiculing but simply stating that without prior knowledge of what I am suppose to see/feel, or some knowledge of the artist and their intent, the painting/drawing is just random scribbles. If for example, my 3 year old grand daughter had created the exact same drawing, would you call it art and have the same reaction? I don't think so. It's because of who the artist was and the story they were able to relay that steered the viewer in a particular direction that gives it value.


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Jun 26, 2020 17:36 |  #34

The first thing I saw in that image from Levina was the barbed wire and the pieces of debris/cloth on it representing failed escapes. To me, it screamed 'concentration camp' imprisonment. It was black, bleak, harsh and desolate and full of despair. Very powerful and unnerving.


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Jun 26, 2020 19:51 |  #35

gjl711 wrote in post #19084201 (external link)
I am neither dismissing nor ridiculing but simply stating that without prior knowledge of what I am suppose to see/feel, or some knowledge of the artist and their intent, the painting/drawing is just random scribbles. If for example, my 3 year old grand daughter had created the exact same drawing, would you call it art and have the same reaction? I don't think so. It's because of who the artist was and the story they were able to relay that steered the viewer in a particular direction that gives it value.

Having some knowledge of the artist's experiences doesn't tell you what YOU are supposed to see/feel. If all you can handle is representational art, that's fine, there are millions of people who feel that way. But haven't you ever gone to an exhibition of representational art and gotten more out of it after reading an artist's exhibition statement?




  
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Post edited over 3 years ago by Tom Reichner.
     
Jun 27, 2020 01:23 |  #36

OhLook wrote in post #19084185 (external link)
.
I wonder what I would have said about the painting if Levina hadn't introduced it by telling about the artist and his life experiences.
.

.
The things I see in art often aren't the things that have to do with the artist's intent, or that have to do with anything the artist was trying to express about his experiences or emotions.

I primarily see the aesthetic elements of an image or a work of art, and can appreciate them for what they are, without any need for a "deeper meaning".
.

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19083780 (external link)
.
What do you all see?
thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by Levina de Ruijter in
./showthread.php?p=190​83780&i=i266783460
forum: General Photography Talk

.

.
The first thing I notice when I see the image is the deep, rich texture that underlies the lower half of the image. . The faint pattern that looks almost like brush strokes, and looks almost like cross-hatching ..... but not completely like either. . And the darker, randomly distributed specks and splotches applied on top of the faint cross-hatching. . To me, this is beautiful.

My eyes and my brain become pleased when I see the richness of this underlying texture. . It is fascinating and interesting, and I want to look at each of the splotches and each of the specks to see how they are shaped. . Then I want to examine the cross-hatching, or the brush strokes, or whatever it is that makes that beautiful, faint almost-pattern under the specks and splotches. . It is just so beautiful - like eye candy to me!

This is what I am talking about:

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When I look at it closely, I am filled with wonder over how he created this texture. . What was the medium? . How did he apply it to the paper? Did he use a sponge? A brush? How did he apply the specks and splotches? . What did he do to get the specks and splotches to be distributed in such an appealing way, to appear random, yet never overlapping one another so much that they turn into a big blob anywhere? . The actual creation of this underlying texture must have been quite complex, and shows how genius and experienced he was with working with these materials.

That is the kind of stuff that really speaks to me. . Form. . Texture. . Balance. . Diversity within a pattern. . Repeating shapes. . Positive and negative space.

In this part of the piece, I see all of these aesthetic elements working together to create something that is beautiful to my eye. . That is why I like the piece so much - because of what it looks like. . But I must admit, the rest of the piece - the heavier lines that were drawn over top of this wonderful texture - I don't really care for that at all. . I don't think it is beautiful, and beauty is what I appreciate in art.

I like things that are cool looking, and don't really care about things that convey emotion or whatever. . The experiences or the emotions of the artist aren't nearly as interesting to me as the way the thing looks. . I would appreciate the piece the same way if I knew the artist's intent or not. . That doesn't really matter to me. . The geometry and texture are what matter to me.


.

"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Levina ­ de ­ Ruijter
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Jun 27, 2020 01:53 |  #37

Gregsiem wrote in post #19084235 (external link)
The first thing I saw in that image from Levina was the barbed wire and the pieces of debris/cloth on it representing failed escapes. To me, it screamed 'concentration camp' imprisonment. It was black, bleak, harsh and desolate and full of despair. Very powerful and unnerving.

Thanks, Greg. I'm glad others can feel its power too.

moose10101 wrote in post #19084263 (external link)
Having some knowledge of the artist's experiences doesn't tell you what YOU are supposed to see/feel. If all you can handle is representational art, that's fine, there are millions of people who feel that way. But haven't you ever gone to an exhibition of representational art and gotten more out of it after reading an artist's exhibition statement?

Agreed. It often helps to know more about an artist, especially with less accessible, "difficult" work. And it's also just very interesting to learn more about an artist one admires. Thanks, Moose.

gjl711 wrote in post #19084201 (external link)
I am neither dismissing nor ridiculing but simply stating that without prior knowledge of what I am suppose to see/feel, or some knowledge of the artist and their intent, the painting/drawing is just random scribbles.

But you're not "suppose" to see or feel anything! Just be open-minded and undergo the art in front of you. That at least is how I approach art. I go into a museum or exhibition not expecting anything. I let the pieces speak to me, as it were. Some art is wasted on me. Some I don't understand. Some blows me away. Some is unsettling and disturbing. Some is moving. The first time I saw Van Gogh I broke out in tears. I was 16 years old and it was the first time I saw art in a museum. I didn't know you could see the world like that. Purple and blue trees. I sat on a bench and stared at one of the orchards for what seemed like hours. I knew nothing of art then. I can still remember the power of those paintings and the impact it had on me.

If for example, my 3 year old grand daughter had created the exact same drawing, would you call it art and have the same reaction? I don't think so. It's because of who the artist was and the story they were able to relay that steered the viewer in a particular direction that gives it value.

Your 3 year old grand daughter could not have created the exact same drawing. Kupferman's painting is very carefully constructed. He usually worked with layers, often scraping away paint. These are not some scribbled lines randomly put on canvas.

I think I'll leave it at that, as we seem to be on very different wave lengths here... ;-)a


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Jun 27, 2020 02:13 |  #38

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19084342 (external link)
OhLook wrote in post #19084185 (external link)
.
I wonder what I would have said about the painting if Levina hadn't introduced it by telling about the artist and his life experiences.
.

.
The things I see in art often aren't the things that have to do with the artist's intent, or that have to do with anything the artist was trying to express about his experiences or emotions.

I primarily see the aesthetic elements of an image or a work of art, and can appreciate them for what they are, without any need for a "deeper meaning".
.

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19083780 (external link)
.
What do you all see?
thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by Levina de Ruijter in
./showthread.php?p=190​83780&i=i266783460
forum: General Photography Talk

.

.
The first thing I notice when I see the image is the deep, rich texture that underlies the lower half of the image. . The faint pattern that looks almost like brush strokes, and looks almost like cross-hatching ..... but not completely like either. . And the darker, randomly distributed specks and splotches applied on top of the faint cross-hatching. . To me, this is beautiful.

My eyes and my brain become pleased when I see the richness of this underlying texture. . It is fascinating and interesting, and I want to look at each of the splotches and each of the specks to see how they are shaped. . Then I want to examine the cross-hatching, or the brush strokes, or whatever it is that makes that beautiful, faint almost-pattern under the specks and splotches. . It is just so beautiful - like eye candy to me!

This is what I am talking about:

Hosted photo: posted by Tom Reichner in
./showthread.php?p=190​84342&i=i78764882
forum: General Photography Talk

When I look at it closely, I am filled with wonder over how he created this texture. . What was the medium? . How did he apply it to the paper? Did he use a sponge? A brush? How did he apply the specks and splotches? . What did he do to get the specks and splotches to be distributed in such an appealing way, to appear random, yet never overlapping one another so much that they turn into a big blob anywhere? . The actual creation of this underlying texture must have been quite complex, and shows how genius and experienced he was with working with these materials.

That is the kind of stuff that really speaks to me. . Form. . Texture. . Balance. . Diversity within a pattern. . Repeating shapes. . Positive and negative space.

In this part of the piece, I see all of these aesthetic elements working together to create something that is beautiful to my eye. . That is why I like the piece so much - because of what it looks like. . But I must admit, the rest of the piece - the heavier lines that were drawn over top of this wonderful texture - I don't really care for that at all. . I don't think it is beautiful, and beauty is what I appreciate in art.

I like things that are cool looking, and don't really care about things that convey emotion or whatever. . The experiences or the emotions of the artist aren't nearly as interesting to me as the way the thing looks. . I would appreciate the piece the same way if I knew the artist's intent or not. . That doesn't really matter to me. . The geometry and texture are what matter to me.


.

Esthetics matter, sure. But for me only as part of something else. Form without meaning is rather, hmmm... meaningless to me.

As to Kupferman's way of working. From what I know and seen, he often used layers of paint on canvas, applying it with brushes or simply paint rollers. He would often scrape away paint to create structure and shape. Although of course I have no idea how exactly he went about with this particular painting.


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Jun 27, 2020 10:27 |  #39

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19084354 (external link)
.
As to Kupferman's way of working. From what I know and seen, he often used layers of paint on canvas, applying it with brushes or simply paint rollers. He would often scrape away paint to create structure and shape.
.

.
That makes sense. . Scraping parts of some layers away would explain how he may have achieved the look that he creates.

I am wondering if there are times when he masked areas off prior to applying paint. . This detail here shows areas that look like they may have been masked, instead of scraped away. . Especially the top part, where there are faint "borders" where the painted layer meets the layer that is void of the undertexture. . I could see how paint or another medium may gather along the edge of the masking, and result in that faint border at the transition point, whereas scraping away would not result in such a border. . (I use the term "border" simply because I do not know of a better word to use to describe the little faint dark line between the two zones.)

IMAGE: https://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/hostedphotos_lq/2020/06/4/LQ_1051863.jpg
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.

"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Jun 27, 2020 17:33 |  #40

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19084534 (external link)
.
That makes sense. . Scraping parts of some layers away would explain how he may have achieved the look that he creates.

I am wondering if there are times when he masked areas off prior to applying paint. . This detail here shows areas that look like they may have been masked, instead of scraped away. . Especially the top part, where there are faint "borders" where the painted layer meets the layer that is void of the undertexture. . I could see how paint or another medium may gather along the edge of the masking, and result in that faint border at the transition point, whereas scraping away would not result in such a border. . (I use the term "border" simply because I do not know of a better word to use to describe the little faint dark line between the two zones.)

Hosted photo: posted by Tom Reichner in
./showthread.php?p=190​84534&i=i18437093
forum: General Photography Talk


.

Yes, he did at times use masks prior to applying paint. Could be he did that in this painting too; that would explain the cut-off.


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Jun 27, 2020 21:18 |  #41

If a three-year-old kicked out Kupferman’s painting, then I would suspect that child to be graduating from Harvard by age 12. Could most any child be physiologically capable of creating something similar? Well, as much as any child could pick up a camera, accidently press the shutter release, and take an excellent photo. Simplicity in process is not a sin, and we, as photographers, should truly appreciate this. Besides, I’ll take the Ramones over ELP any day.

Can a child produce art? Well, even if they don’t mean to, they can certainly craft something engaging. Can a child’s random scribble be dubiously sold as a rare piece by a famous artist? Yes, absolutely. It’s a complicated world, particularly when it comes to art and its value; things get real messy.

So do you buy the Gursky because you’ve been told it’s worth something, or because you actually enjoy his body of work? Is it all in the name, and if so, how did he establish the name? A recently discovered crappy Beatles demo tape from 1962 would hold immense value because of the Beatle’s historic contribution to modern music irrespective of the demo’s actual quality. Or maybe you buy the Gursky simply as in investment, just like you throw down a couple million on a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle baseball card because, while not worth much in material terms, it still has room to grow.

Perceived value. Well, this can be viewed as the exploitable creation of shrewd marketing or as that which helps underpin humanity’s greatest forms of expression. Or any combination of the such. It’s easy to fall on one side, particularly since cynicism and incredulity are safe, especially when the sensory and intellectual demands skew around the literal or conventional. One man’s trash, another man’s art, and so on.

Complicating matters is that intent and interpretation can be scattered all over the place: what is the work trying to say; is it trying to say anything; what was the artist’s intent; did they have any intent; what’s your interpretation; what’s my interpretation; is there a desired interpretation; or is it deliberately open to any interpretation.

I believe it was Susan Sontag who correctly argued that this common demand to find meaning in art can sometimes serve as a pretext for undue criticism. It establishes a weaponized prerequisite that detracts from the aesthetic of form itself. If one “does not get it’, then perhaps the artist failed, or maybe they’re just pretentious, or maybe it’s all just a marketing scam, and so on.

So to Tom’s point, sometimes, the aesthetic is the message. This, of course, is not to say that art never has meaning. But even to this extent, the meaning might be interpreted more through the visceral than through the intellectual, where the visual alone elicits reaction without need for further analysis, let alone knowledge of the artist’s identity.

And to Levina’s point, understanding the meaning, should there be one, can be enriching. At its most basic, for example, a photo of an elderly couple might mean little to the viewer until the viewer learns that the couple was their great grandparents. Kupferman’s piece is compelling without further context, but explanation certainly enhances its impact…this points to the issue of art appreciation, which has been discussed and even practiced throughout this thread.

Abstract is inherently controversially because the process seems suspect; my kid could do that, hell, my dog could do that. Of course, art excels in its final presentation, and the process is largely irrelevant; an interesting backstory, but not the point (unless meant to be so for artistic reasons). Otherwise, toss your digital cameras aside and start using glass plates.

Abstract is also controversial because it does not offer the comforting obvious. Yet, at its heart, it is the culmination of line, angles, geometry, contrast, movement, balance, composition, light, dark, color, tonality, tension, or even texture. Abstract is aesthetic form in its purest sense; and as a tool of expression, it can be very effective because of this directness.

And through abstract, we gain a better insight into aesthetic, which in turn applies to almost all aspects of life, even the conventional, pragmatic, and necessary; or what one might consider ‘real value’:

-Food: Visual presentation, ask the Japanese about its complementary attributes; or for that matter, ask McDonalds how much they spend to make a Big Mac look like a gift from God in their ads.
-Shelter: Ask engineers why architects are such a pain, or tell me Frank Lloyd Wright was only concerned about structural integrity.
-Clothing: Explore the visual world of fashion, where even primary “needs” can rise to soaring pretension.

Decisions to buy cars often extend beyond transport needs, where industrial design can also play a major factor. Even in the utilitarian constraints of the military, form can present itself, as demonstrated in the Battle of Britain, when the gorgeous Spitfire with its stunning elliptical wings symbolized and celebrated British resolve despite the plainer Hurricane shouldering a greater chunk of the burden---the inadvertent beauty of aerodynamics.

The above discussed mainly centers on commercial applications, but it should underscore the value of “art’s” elemental contribution to our general quality of life. But art’s value is not merely validated by its influence on the pragmatic, of course, and where it shines most is when it exists for itself. Here, the height of humanity’s creativity and expressional abilities manifest, becoming a central value to defining the personal, the cultural, the societal, the spiritual, the philosophical, and the emotional.

To be sure, we can dig through tons of pretense, fraud, and emperors’ clothing, delighting the cynic who clings onto the literal for legitimacy. However, when so much of life itself comprises complex and abstract concepts, not the least of which are our emotions, art would be derelict in its valued potential if it shackled itself solely to realism just to avoid the swindling barkers. And even when striving for the unembellished, artistic components can still elevate the statement, as evidenced by the work of superb war photographers. Photography is generally at its best when its effect transcends the subject matter, even when the subject matter is, itself, inherently compelling or beautiful.

But it’s all subjective! Yes, but this hardly renders the value of art as merely ‘perceived’, at least in a pejorative sense, and to prove this, we need only imagine a world without literature, music, paintings, sculptures, photography, design, and other artistic mediums. We are not robots, and the universal creation of art in all of its various forms proves that it is as much as being human as any other aspect of humanity. But on the granular level, yes, subjectivity exists, and we cannot force another to like something. This might be frustrating sometimes, but it actually speaks to our individuality, just as our individuality speaks through art, and this is a positive thing. What is unconstructive are blanket litmus tests, such as the ‘anyone can do this”, which add nothing to the conversation.


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Jun 28, 2020 13:11 |  #42

The thing is that it doesn't have to be abstract to have no meaning to me. I do a lot of non-fine art portraiture for things like media guides and the like. I will never claim to being a master at it. But I occasionally drop in on the G/N forum here... and those photos make about as much sense as the squiggles above. "To me".... they are just clones of one another, very seldom is there something really artful there... again "to me".

So as said by others.... to each their own, and as my builder said, that is why there are so many colors of crayons. The best idea is to engage in conversation about it.... and just sometimes I learn something I was expecting to.




  
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