Canon EOS R5 Unite and Discuss!

Thanks. Yes, I had that set to 0 first time I went through the menu as I always had tracking sensitivity to -1 or Slow on my 1DIV. Only when shooting swallows in flight did I turn it all the way up to Fast. But a good point!

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19165237
Thanks. Yes, I had that set to 0 first time I went through the menu as I always had tracking sensitivity to -1 or Slow on my 1DIV. Only when shooting swallows in flight did I turn it all the way up to Fast. But a good point!

"Switching tracked subjects," under Menu: AF: #4, is not the same as "tracking sensitivity" under Menu: AF: #3: Case 1-4.

SYS wrote in post #19165245
"Switching tracked subjects," under Menu: AF: #4, is not the same as "tracking sensitivity" under Menu: AF: #3: Case 1-4.

Oh, I meant "tracking sensitivity" in the 1DIV menu C.Fn III-2. I didn't exactly understand the difference between the R6's "switching tracked subjects" and the R6's "tracking sensitivity" but thought they had to be similar so set it accordingly. Was that wrong you think?

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19165264
Oh, I meant "tracking sensitivity" in the 1DIV menu C.Fn III-2. I didn't exactly understand the difference between the R6's "switching tracked subjects" and the R6's "tracking sensitivity" but thought they had to be similar so set it accordingly. Was that wrong you think?

"Switching tracked subjects" is the sensitivity of the AF tracking changing from, say, one bird to another bird nearby. Since we want to limit the randomness of the AF tracking changing from one bird to another as much as possible, the option under "Switching tracked subjects" should be set to "0" so that the AF stays on the same bird as much as it can. When I tried this upon getting my R5, it did help, but it wasn't perfect. But, hey, whatever helps.

SYS wrote in post #19165245
under Menu: AF: #4, is not the same as "tracking sensitivity" under Menu: AF: #3: Case 1-4.

Yes. Canon split that from the Case numbers from the DSLR's and created a new menu "Switching tracked subjects". No more cases 5 and 6 which where best suited for Zone AF. They also removed AF Switching from the 3 parameters. I'm kinda wondering now how effective the Case numbers are for Zone and Face + Tracking? I have had a few thoughts on that.

Case 2. TS is negative. I set it to -2. If the AF point/s go off your subject AF will hang on and not refocus instantly on something else and give you time to reacquire your original subject. This includes your subject being obstructed momentarily by something else like a tree or another bird.  

Case 3. TS is positive. I typically set it to +2. The opposite of Case 2. System will immediately refocuses on another subject when AF point/s fall on it. The intent is that you are already focused on something else first. For example good for tracking two runners in a race, you are shooting both and are switching from one to another.

How could you even use Case 3 in Zone and Face + Tracking. The system either finds the subject or eye unless you use initial AF point. Now that you are tracking one subject how do you get it to switch to another subject? I briefly read a few snipits about using the joystick to do that in this thread but never followed it up. If so, is that practical in a fast paced environment where I have to get shots of both the runners? In this situation I'd be on single point or expansion and using Case 3.

Seems like Zone and specifically Face +Tracking is a different thing altogether. You let the system find your subject or you use initial AF. Once AF is archived the only control via "Switching tracked subjects" is to tell the system to try and hang on to the original subject as best as it can or just find another if AF is compromised on the first subject.

What got me to thinking is what happens if I'm Zone and specifically Face +Tracking, Case 2 with TS at to -2 and select Enable for "Switching tracked subjects". Wouldn't the two be fighting each other? One wants to hang on and the other wants to let go. No where in the manual does it say if you pick a specific tracking characteristic in the Case numbers you have to match it in "Switching tracked subjects"

I'm thinking the only control you have using Zone and Face + Tracking is using "Switching tracked subjects". The R5 and 6 are pretty sophisticated and basically run the whole show. You just tell the system to hang on or let go. I could be wrong but I keep wondering why they created a new separate menu for it. I have been looking all over for additional information. Where is Rudy Winston when you need him?

For the last 5 years with my DLSR's. When I was in Zone AF I used cases 5 and 6 (mostly 6) exclusively. Single point I used Cases 1 to 4. I'm kinda treating the R5 this way for now. Any thoughts or critique are welcome from anyone.

Methodical wrote in post #19165099
Yep. I agree. I just don't see big deal and don't experience what folks keep saying is happening. Perhaps it's just me.

..

It's almost like it's just parroting, because it used to be true of EVF and this so oft repeated. I know I still FAR prefer optical to EVF in most situations, but that opinion does not require misplaced assumptions or pseudo facts. Lag does not appear to be a problem with this camera. Just my opinion I guess.

goalerjones wrote in post #19165112
I remember having a hard time wrapping my head around a real time EVF. Now I'm watching BIF guys setting up their cameras, and when the EVF subject comes up they're basically saying, "Don't worry about it".

Yes. Times have changed.

As I said above, I still feel that the true to life feel of optical is my own preference. I don't know if EVF will ever replace that, but I am not having any issues with lag.

Jared5 wrote in post #19165064
No need to worry about EVF lag.

https://youtu.be/0cQHL​TbIso0

Hosted photo: posted by Jared5 in
./showthread.php?p=191​65064&i=i62031916
forum: Canon Digital Cameras

Thanks for the link.

Just to add to my post. I always suspected Case 5 and 6 where better suited for Zone AF. The AF guides kept getting better and then the 1DXII AF guide came out. I include Case 6 because like Case 5, AF Switching also increases from 0 to 1. As I said Cases 5 and 6 and AF Switching no longer exist on the R5. That seems to be in the new "Switching tracked subjects" and it does work a little differently.

Methodical wrote in post #19165096
I think the Auto setting for Eye Detect is best for really static objects, like portraiture work, where you want to switch from one eye to another. It can work for really static birds, but we know they move a lot. I'd rather tell the system where to start with Eye Detect and if necessary use single AF point to change to another subject. Test it out though to see if you like it. It's ok, but I didn't want the system to make too many choices on it's own.

Maybe best, but my little play today definitely does not agree with your suggestion.
Crappy day so no real keepers, but my usual beach testing sight has a permanent wintering flock of Brandt's Geese, a few dozen Swans, and gulls. sadly no gull's in flight today to speak, of, but the choppy waters and numbers of geese was the perfect place to test animal eye detect on a large groups.

I was pretty amazed with how well it all worked now that I have it set up correctly. It IS a little odd which eye it tends to pick, it's definitely not bias towards center,. just like Zone it tends to chose on it's own. Oddly, unlike zone, it does not bias towards the nearest. If anything it tended to bias towards the farthest. Odd?

But without question, it would offer up a white box and then quickly arrows to either side, often , usually, before I had even initialized any AF at all. I could toggle through them, eye to eye, then hit AF ON to lock on the one that I wanted. All in all, totally successful test.

Do we sometimes want to override all of that? Well yes, of course, and thus spot of single point AF on the * button (or vice versa as you prefer)

Here is how in use it's different from previous Canon AF AI Servo tracking systems, and how that difference effects other aspects of how I use the camera.

With previous tracking,
- it was always hit or miss, erring on the side of miss with erratic subjects or busy situations like backgrounds, or on the water.
- To get it to work we had to learn to use it, recognize it's weak points and adjust.
- You had to chose tracking vs. precision. You had to sacrifice tolerances to use tracking. Many would not use multiple AF points or tracking at all insisting on only using single AF point. Due to the lack or precision, you'd get the subject in focus, but maybe the wingtip, or arm as opposed to face or eye. Big compromise.

None of that is true with this AF Tracking system now. The precision is baked right in. It's so good that many of the compromises I used to make with the AF set up are gone. Personally my walk out the door AF set up has been since the 1D2, Single AF point with expansion on. This allowed initial AF on the center point, but it would use surrounding AF points to help keep fast moving subject in focus when I couldn't keep it under the center. this same basic system allows me to get very difficult birds in flight shots from the 20D basic AF on up to the 1DX. Also, because of this, and the fact that on the older pdaf systems the sensitivity was crap, I never had a use for "spot" AF (and you can find my comments regarding it being a terrible solution for anyone shooting action all over this forum.) Now with a fully functioning AF tracking system that does not force me to do a huge amount of work, or make huge compromises in what set up will actually get the job done, combined with having that second AF set up for focus recompose etc. on the * button AF, I am trying out spot af again, and assume it will be the more sensible choice since I simply won;t need that set up to track anything.

SYS wrote in post #19165284
"Switching tracked subjects" is the sensitivity of the AF tracking changing from, say, one bird to another bird nearby. Since we want to limit the randomness of the AF tracking changing from one bird to another as much as possible, the option under "Switching tracked subjects" should be set to "0" so that the AF stays on the same bird as much as it can. When I tried this upon getting my R5, it did help, but it wasn't perfect. But, hey, whatever helps.

Yes, I know. What I don't get is how it is different from Tracking Sensitivity? I mean, that does pretty much the same thing: set it to Fast and it switches to another subject quickly. Set it to Slow and it stays with the subject as much as possible.

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19165396
Yes, I know. What I don't get is how it is different from Tracking Sensitivity? I mean, that does pretty much the same thing: set it to Fast and it switches to another subject quickly. Set it to Slow and it stays with the subject as much as possible.

By "Tracking Sensitivity," I think you're referring to the Case 3 in the R5 (I'm assuming it's the same case in the R6?), which is the only one out of all cases that deals with situations where another subject gets involved. I think the difference between Tracking Sensitivity in the Case 3 (Menu: AF: #3) and the "Switching tracked subjects" (Menu: AF: #4) lies in the subjects in relation to the AF. The Case 3 is about the AF's response to another subject entering into the AF points, whereas "Switching tracked subjects" is in relation to the subjects that are already in the AF points. This is why "Switching tracked subjects" only takes effect when the AF method is set to Face Tracking, Large Zone AF: Horizontal, Large Zone AF: Vertical, or Zone AF. So, for what we're after, i.e., tracking the same subject, I've set the Case 3 Tracking Sensitivity to -2 and Switching tracked subjects to 0.

SYS wrote in post #19165407
By "Tracking Sensitivity," I think you're referring to the Case 3 in the R5 (I'm assuming it's the same case in the R6?), which is the only one out of all cases that deals with situations where another subject gets involved. I think the difference between Tracking Sensitivity in the Case 3 (Menu: AF: #3) and the "Switching tracked subjects" (Menu: AF: #4) lies in the subjects in relation to the AF. The Case 3 is about the AF's response to another subject entering into the AF points, whereas "Switching tracked subjects" is in relation to the subjects that are already in the AF points. This is why "Switching tracked subjects" only takes effect when the AF method is set to Face Tracking, Large Zone AF: Horizontal, Large Zone AF: Vertical, or Zone AF. So, for what we're after, i.e., tracking the same subject, I've set the Case 3 Tracking Sensitivity to -2 and Switching tracked subjects to 0.

Not sure if case 3 is the only one where other subjects get involved. But I get what you are saying about "Switching tracked subjects" and now have a better understanding of the difference between it and Tracking Sensitivity. Thanks again!

SYS wrote in post #19165213
Yes, the Auto setting for Eye Detect is great for portraiture, and my C1 mode is set for such. What I'm finding is that the only way that I can have the pre-focus white square to appear on the viewfinder in Servo AF mode is when the Auto is chosen. In One Shot mode, no problem, and that's why the guy in the video has the white square come up although he did not choose the Auto setting. When I choose, as in my prior set up, Initial AF pt set for Eye Detect, then I lose that pre-focus white square because of the Servo AF setting elsewhere in the menu.

A problem with my prior set up (Initial AF pt for Eye Detect) was that, although you can tell the system where to start, once it starts where you ask the system to, it will detect an eye at random and you lose the control and the system takes over. Here's the situation I found myself in often with my prior set up: I see a group of birds all in close proximity to one another. I initiate the AF to be in one particular bird' eye and all's well initially. Then, since they move constantly (or if you move your camera), the system randomly picks another bird's eye next to the initial bird. I then press the * button (set to spot focus) to get back to the initial bird of my choice. It goes on like this, back and forth, back and forth.

With the Auto setting (and from here, since I'm bound at home and unable to go out for actual birding, is based on my tests using my HDTV screen where two or more people are next to one another) I have the pre-focus white square come up immediately as soon as I point my lens in that direction and finds an eye to focus on. Right away. The pre-focus white square goes to the eye that I'm pointing my lens to. If I want another person's eye, I simply point the lens in that person's direction, and the white square finds that person's eye without the apparent randomness. Of course, the subjects are larger than the small birds, but then I believe I can duplicate this in real birding situations since the tiny birds become larger subjects by lens zooming.

The point is that the Auto setting for Eye Detect is so good that I'm willing to give this method a try in real birding situations. If my initial findings are confirmed, then I'll stick to this for good. The guy in the video link is wrong about the Auto setting, namely, that "it does whatever." Without the Eye Detect enabled, yes, he should be correct, but not Auto setting in conjunction with the Eye Detect enabled. In conjunction, it becomes Auto Eye Detect and it detects the eye that your lens is pointing to and it does it immediately and with the added benefit of being able to pick the eye of my choice with the white arrow by a simple nudge of the joystick.

The difference between my prior set up (Initial AF pt for Eye Detect) and now with the Auto appears to be that I can have greater control of the eye among many eyes and at very fast speed. Auto in this case doesn't seem to be synonymous with randomness. Quite to the contrary, I get to be in control more than the camera system.

But, again, these findings aren't from real birding situations, so these need to be confirmed. I'll report on this later.

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #19165353
Maybe best, but my little play today definitely does not agree with your suggestion.
Crappy day so no real keepers, but my usual beach testing sight has a permanent wintering flock of Brandt's Geese, a few dozen Swans, and gulls. sadly no gull's in flight today to speak, of, but the choppy waters and numbers of geese was the perfect place to test animal eye detect on a large groups.

I was pretty amazed with how well it all worked now that I have it set up correctly. It IS a little odd which eye it tends to pick, it's definitely not bias towards center,. just like Zone it tends to chose on it's own. Oddly, unlike zone, it does not bias towards the nearest. If anything it tended to bias towards the farthest. Odd?

But without question, it would offer up a white box and then quickly arrows to either side, often , usually, before I had even initialized any AF at all. I could toggle through them, eye to eye, then hit AF ON to lock on the one that I wanted. All in all, totally successful test.

Do we sometimes want to override all of that? Well yes, of course, and thus spot of single point AF on the * button (or vice versa as you prefer)...

SYS, when you point the camera to another subject, do you release the shutter so the camera can refocus on the new subject?

Just an FYI. I've activated the touch screen (right side) and can switch subjects by just touching it on the screen with my thumb. I find this method much faster for me right now. I don't need to redirect the camera to a different subject; just touch on it and it focuses and tracks that subject.

Methodical wrote in post #19165463
SYS, when you point the camera to another subject, do you release the shutter so the camera can refocus on the new subject?

Just an FYI. I've activated the touch screen (right side) and can switch subjects by just touching it on the screen with my thumb. I find this method much faster for me right now. I don't need to redirect the camera to a different subject; just touch on it and it focuses and tracks that subject.

I shot a play with the 1DXIII this way. (touch and drag) It was really cool.
I can't see myself ever doing it with wildlife, or at least not my norm, but for a situation where I was sitting in a chair, relatively immobile, it was very cool and worked. I could frame however I wanted and get which ever actor where they were on stage in sharp focus. Bonkers!