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Thread started 09 Jul 2020 (Thursday) 08:28
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R5 v/s R6- here they are. which for you and why ?

 
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wimg
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Jul 15, 2020 07:02 |  #316

WilsonFlyer wrote in post #19093493 (external link)
That tariff was EU and it was lifted several years ago now. They got away with it under that still false premise (The tariff was basically nothing in the scheme of a camera to begin with.). Now it's just canon because they can.

It's 2020, and until it starts hurting their bottom line, they're going to keep doing what they have always done just like they always have.

Well, that limitation is still in place, actually. Over here at least.

Kind regards, Wim


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Charlie
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Jul 15, 2020 07:02 |  #317

Vendee wrote in post #19093611 (external link)
Sorry but I just don't believe that. There has to be a cost and not a small cost. I'm another photographer who is pee'd off with our stills cameras being hijacked by video enthusiasts and us having to foot the bill.

Rant over ;-)a

You don’t like 20 FPS or 45mp? If it weren’t for video, the R5/R6 would not exist.


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wimg
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Jul 15, 2020 07:05 |  #318

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19093497 (external link)
Well also the consumer protections are much more strict in most parts of the world, and that warranty cost is part of the higher costs. We only get a one year in the US, and the costs are lower, plus many manufacturers know the love affair Americans have for extended warranties. I am not one of that crowd however.

In the EU you have a very comprehensive warranty for a minimum of 2 years, and in addition a rather high VAT rate on luxury goods like cameras. All that gets factored into the cost of a camera, unfortunately.

The R5 is priced here at around € 4500 ....

Kind regards, Wim


EOS R & EOS 5 (analog) with a gaggle of primes & 3 zooms, OM-D E-M1 Mk II & Pen-F with 10 primes, 6 zooms, 3 Metabones adapters/speedboosters​, and an accessory plague

  
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Jul 15, 2020 07:10 |  #319

wimg wrote in post #19093642 (external link)
This due to regulation in the EU. At 30 minutes it falls in a different tax bracket, for video cameras, which makes it more expensive.
This limit is there for all still cameras that do video. It is not Canon-specific at all.

Kind regards, Wim

Even if it still exists, I don't give a crap. I don't live in the EU. My steering wheel is on the correct side of the car. Fix it




  
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Jul 15, 2020 07:12 |  #320

WilsonFlyer wrote in post #19093651 (external link)
Even if it still exists, I don't give a crap. I don't live in the EU. My steering wheel is on the correct side of the car. Fix it

No need to be condescending.

I only tried to provide some relevant info.

Regards, Wim


EOS R & EOS 5 (analog) with a gaggle of primes & 3 zooms, OM-D E-M1 Mk II & Pen-F with 10 primes, 6 zooms, 3 Metabones adapters/speedboosters​, and an accessory plague

  
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WilsonFlyer
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Jul 15, 2020 07:19 |  #321

wimg wrote in post #19093652 (external link)
No need to be condescending.

I only tried to provide some relevant info.

Regards, Wim

Nor was I and so was I.




  
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Capn ­ Jack
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Jul 15, 2020 07:40 |  #322

John Sheehy wrote in post #19093623 (external link)
Those numbers are not what they might seem to be to.

When you see numbers like 60% for quantum efficiency, they are referring to the efficiency in a green-filtered pixel when presented with narrow-band green light. Half the pixels don't record much of the green light at all, and use it not as green, but as "not-green" to help distinguish local color, so the real quantum efficiency of green light is more like 30%, and blue light, about 10%, and red light, about 6%; that what you pay for in photons, for color.

The metric focuses on the green channel because the green channel is the most sensitive, and green light is the most abundant beneath the color filters in most lighting situations for a white subject tone, representing the channel most likely to run into headroom problems.

It depends on the sensor. I've used sensors optimized for infrared, hence my comment about them not specifying the wavelength of light tested. It is probably green light (~500 to ~570 nm wavelength), but we are assuming that value, and we could be wrong (see the T3i reference below). For quoting quantum efficiency (QE), the value listed is that where the sensor is most sensitive. For most sensors, it happens to be the green wavelengths, but it need not be. For testing, the light doesn't need to have a particularly narrow wavelength range, either since the fall-off isn't that large; the QE is fairly flat at the wavelength showing maximum sensitivity.

Also, where are you getting those number about blue light having 10% QE, and red being only 6%?
How about a reference? Or some math explaining how you came up with those numbers?

According to the reference below, a Canon T3i show maximum response in the RED! a T3i isn't a specialized research camera by any means.
https://www.researchga​te.net …est_Modeling/fi​gures?lo=1 (external link)

John Sheehy wrote in post #19093620 (external link)
I've pretty much given up on that being the next big thing. Until such a revolution, there is little room for improvement in photon noise. Only camera-created electronic noise can improve much, and that is the real difference between sensors in the last several years.

You'll NEVER improve on photon noise. Photon, or shot noise, is a consequence of statistics. See the references below, as they show the math behind it.
https://en.wikipedia.o​rg …occupation%20nu​mber%20and (external link)
https://svi.nl/PhotonN​oise (external link)
https://camera.hamamat​su.com …ton_shot_noise/​index.html (external link)

John Sheehy wrote in post #19093620 (external link)
Camera-created noise could actually improve by two stops, for example, with a new camera, but you won't see a two-stop improvement across the board; it will only approach two stops, and only in the tones at various ISOs in which that noise is a significant contribution to noise; mainly the deepest shadows and the very highest ISOs. The highlights of ISO 6400 are not going to vary much, regardless of the character and quantity of camera-created noise, but dig up its shadows, and you will see variation with different cameras, as you will at ISO 102,400, or even more so with 102,400 pushed a couple of stops.

When pushed to 400,000 ISO, much of the noise is going to be shot noise, just because the few photons the camera does see are going to be landing at random places.




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Jul 15, 2020 07:50 |  #323

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19092040 (external link)
.
John,

I am a bit confused with this talk that involves "normalizing results" and the like.

In post #210, I asked Cary some questions, as I wondered about some of the things he said about this issue. . But I would value your feedback, as well, as you seem to know what people mean when they talk about normalizing results.

Just please try to answer in a way that I can understand ..... many things that you and others write here on the forum are way over my head and I just don't understand because the talk is often too technical for me.

.

It's about equal display of equal goals, and also recognizing when equal goals aren't achievable.

You seem to operate in the corner case, where you are only interested in the best photo ops, gear-wise and light-wise. You seek out larger subjects, if possible, getting real close, carrying a large lens, and trying to use most of a larger sensor. So, there is no way that you can do better, except to have a FF sensor with more pixels and less noise, or get an even bigger lens. Almost everyone wants that, but not everyone is willing to limit their photography to the very best opportunities.

Lots of people don't operate in that corner, though, and frequently shoot things that are always too small, or too far away. Such people can get tricked into thinking that they're getting better captures than they are when they use larger sensors or larger pixels.

You made a statement recently about how much better the 5D4 is than the 7D2 in low light. I see this statement all the time, but it is not necessarily true. It is only true in real practice, when you get closer to the subject, or use a bigger lens, which both give a different photo with more shallow DOF, or in the case of just getting closer, a different perspective.

I've seen people who have to crop heavy even from the 7D2 for most of their photography "upgrade" to the 5D4 or even the 5D3. Those are certainly upgrades without quotation marks for many photographic situations, but not all. They are happy with their upgrade, but are viewing their results at 100% or viewing the entire images resized to their monitor and then noticing how they are sharper, and less noisy at the same ISO as on the 7D2. What they don't notice, is that their bird is smaller on the monitor in either case, and the increased sharpness or lower noise is only an illusion deriving from the smaller size.

If the default method of inspection were to view every bird photographed at 12" from tail to bill tip on the monitor, this illusion would not exist. The subject "bird" would be normalized, and it would be clear that shooting bigger birds, getting closer to them, or using a larger entrance pupil or shooting in brighter light (or risking blur with longer exposures) are all that matter for noise; the sensor size and pixel size are out the window.




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Jul 15, 2020 07:54 |  #324

Charlie wrote in post #19093646 (external link)
You don’t like 20 FPS or 45mp? If it weren’t for video, the R5/R6 would not exist.

It is conceivable that Canon would have gone past 45MP if it were not such a perfect pixel count for 8K video.




  
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Jul 15, 2020 08:25 as a reply to  @ WilsonFlyer's post |  #325

Actually WilsonFlyer whether your steering wheel is on the right side of the car is a matter of opinion!!




  
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Jul 15, 2020 08:48 |  #326

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #19092939 (external link)
I do find it odd that the R6 trails the R in resolution so much,. I see it's clearly the 1DX3 sensor made into mirror-less,. but still.
That said, I understand there is a solid market and use for 20MP,. I've been happy with 20mp for many uses indeed.

But my question is not R vs. R6 vs. R5,.. it's

R5 Vs. 1DXIII???


$2.5K less than the 1DX3, with 2.5X the resolution! Wow!

The 1DX3 has no heat issues and you can shoot 20fps mechanical or e- shutter. Unlimited buffer and a battery that can last all day. E- shutter is a disadvantage in allot of situations.


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Jul 15, 2020 08:50 |  #327

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19092952 (external link)
.
All while providing the same frames per second (when using electronic shutter).

For the camera to be able to process the same 20 FPS with 2.5x the resolution makes me wonder why the 1DX3 is 'limited' to 20mp. . I mean, if Canon clearly has the processing ability to shoot 20 FPS at 45mp, then why not equip their flagship professional body with this same processing capability?

.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19092952 (external link)
.
All while providing the same frames per second (when using electronic shutter).

For the camera to be able to process the same 20 FPS with 2.5x the resolution makes me wonder why the 1DX3 is 'limited' to 20mp. . I mean, if Canon clearly has the processing ability to shoot 20 FPS at 45mp, then why not equip their flagship professional body with this same processing capability?


.

Probably because at 20 megapixels the 1DX three does not have any heat issues in any video mode.


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Jul 15, 2020 08:58 |  #328

Vendee wrote in post #19093611 (external link)
Sorry but I just don't believe that. There has to be a cost and not a small cost. I'm another photographer who is pee'd off with our stills cameras being hijacked by video enthusiasts and us having to foot the bill.

Rant over ;-)a

They are in the business and have never lied to me before. Locally owned, no pressure, no commission sales. Sure there is a cost but they said it did not increase the price of cameras significantly. I was reading another thread. If a camera can do 20 e shutter video is not much to add.

I'm trying to convince you otherwise. Just passing on info.


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Jul 15, 2020 09:15 |  #329

butterfly2937 wrote in post #19093688 (external link)
The 1DX3 has no heat issues and you can shoot 20fps mechanical or e- shutter. Unlimited buffer and a battery that can last all day. E- shutter is a disadvantage in allot of situations.

The cameras with pure electronic (slow rolling) shutters (AKA "quiet mode") for stills should come with a pamphlet that explains and visually demonstrates their limitations; a lot of people have botched the photography of unrepeatable events with this mode.




  
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Charlie
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Jul 15, 2020 09:17 |  #330

digital paradise wrote in post #19093692 (external link)
They are in the business and have never lied to me before. Locally owned, no pressure, no commission sales. Sure there is a cost but they said it did not increase the price of cameras significantly. I was reading another thread. If a camera can do 20 e shutter video is not much to add.

I'm trying to convince you otherwise. Just passing on info.

I believe you are being accurate as in the price of cameras have been stable for many years. Stills guys are paying for a lot of the RnD work for the video guys and I thank you for that  :p

if Canon were focused purely on stills, you would probably have a DUAL CFexpress, 60mp R5 by now :-P

on topic of the R5/R6, firmware promises, looks like the pendulum is swinging back towards the R5 for me. Two modes without overheating, and generally better overheating recovery. Wont be preordering though, the insane price drop of the original R has me scared of taking such a big hit. Either way, I'm excited about the firmware leaks, if true, it would solve most of the issues I see with this camera.


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