Lens Advice

For the love of the Tooth Fairy ... I hope to Moses someone makes this a sticky. But then again, I guess I just hope no one deletes it.

Why oh why oh why oh why do so many people insist on telling newbies what lenses they should buy? I mean, remembering back to my newbie days 14 years ago, I think to myself, "Yeah, if I had discussion forums back then, I would probably have asked them which lenses to buy." So I guess I can't fault the newbies.

No, what gets to me, is that so many people insist on actually TELLING people what lenses to buy!!! I mean, anyone who understands photography to any degree understands that everyone's photographic needs are different. For example, I see soooo many of you touting the virtues of wide-angle lenses for landscapes and whatever other things you like to photograph at 10mm. Me ... I'm all about longer focal lengths, head croppings, the beauty of the eyes, and I try to stay as candid as possible. I recently picked up a Sigma 105 EX DG as a portrait lens on a 1.6 crop body and I STILL find it a little short in the focal length arena. Yet somehow, every Noob who asks, "What lens should I buy?" gets 400 responses ranging from "nifty-fifty" to 85.1.2L within 20 minutes of his first post.

Let me give you a fake example of the typical problem:

Noob: "Hi, I just bought a 20D with my tax return. I've been really into this photography thing for a little over 6 days now and I've taken an entire 100 shots with this camera. After reading a bunch of reviews and these forums, I've decided that enough people don't like my kit lens so I won't like it either. This despite the fact that my not-so-great photos are my fault, not the lens'. What lens should I buy? Please notice that I'm not telling you what focal length I like to shoot to shoot in, whether I tend to shoot indoors or out, what my budget is, whether or not I have a flash and like to use it or not, or anything else about what I'm shooting. I just want you to tell me what to buy so my wife can murder me when she sees the bill."

L-Junkie: "Hi Noob. Yes, you're problem is immediately fixed by any lens that cost more than a kidney. Go get yourself the POTN kit: A 24-70L, a 70-200L, and 50mm 1.4, an 85 1.8, and with the remaining money from the sale of your wife as a prostitute, get something REALLY expensive."

Do we approach the fact that this person has no idea what it is to take a photo? Do we explain to him that it takes education, a yearn for this hobby, and practice practice practice before he will ever understand what the difference is between a $200 lens and a $2000 lens? No, we blankly say, "Go get thee xxxxxxx".
WTF!?!?!?!?

Now, I already know mods are gonna jump all over me like Billy Blanks on a bad martial arts movie .... so let me give you some examples, simply from the first-page posts in the Equipment Talk section:

I'm gonna start off with my favorite: Mr. Vision Eyez, who obviously has a camera shake problem from poor form in shooting .... asking if the problem with his new $4K expenditure has to do with him not splurging for the "IS" option on the 70-200 he just bought. One guy goes so far as to say, "You have a very good setup for a starter". Holy F'ing Mother Mary of Lord Wilhelm the IX!!!! That's the biggest understatement since Mars was formed.
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=151914
For the record, Vision Eyez, I'm not poking fun at you at all. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the advice you were given. Not one person recommended you shoot a few thousand more shots, learn about trigger control, or try in any way to let you know you overspent by roughly $3K on equipment you won't get full potential out of for another couple of years.

Another goodie: "Which of the following lenses is the best for my money: Sigma 18-200 f/3.5-6.3, Canon 28-105 f/3.5-4.5 USM, Sigma 18-125 f/3.5-5.6, my budget is no more than $200?" We get one response for the 35 f/2.0, two for the 17-85 IS, and 3 for the 24-105 f/4L on the first page alone! Jesus H. Chrismas!!!! Can we read or do are we still Hooked on Phonics? https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=148482

Here's another gem: Jewels52 offers the following topic, "17-85 ef-s wide open?". He goes on to say that when he "zoomed out all the way (17mm), the pictures weren't as sharp and crisp". Did anyone ... anyone at all, explain to him that "wide open" has to do with the aperture, and absolutely nothing at all to do with the focal length. Of course not. Instead, we get off into a rant about how the nifty fifty isn't that great wide open either (of course, that one doesn't zoom, so hmmmmm??????????). https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=152212

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Oooooh, ahhh, weeee, woooo, yummmmmm. WTF. If you THINK you know about photography but don't actually have a clue, stop offering advice. I'm STILL asking newbies to post a photo with EXIF data when they have a "problem" but the 20 people who reply before me offer up ridiculous advice without ever seeing what the problem is. Why oh Why oh Why oh Why!?!? Help me, please help me people. For the love of everything that is pure, help me. I'm almost at the breaking point. You're driving me to drink chocolate milk in unbearably large quanties.

Bill in Brooklyn

I think you have a very good point. But for all it is worth the seem moot. There are rules that govern logical focal length at which point it determines as to what focal length lens is suitable in general for what type of photography. Now you can you whatever lens you choose to shoot with but for a Neewbie that decision reuires a little hand holding. That is beause these neewbie don't have that 15 years of expert experience that you have. I'm sure given the opportunity you'll guide these neeewbies to the right direction.

The bottom line is they need help .
They asked for help.
We reply.
Simple.

Bill, interesting rant and rave. I see where you're coming from, and I do agree with you -- that we need to offer constructive advice or criticism based on the problem rather than what "we" think things should be.

The reality, however, is that the world is made up of a gazzilion individuals, each of them unique in his/her own way... It is what makes the world a diverse and interesting place to live in.

Bottom line is, we can only control what we/I dish out... but not others. Learn to live with it and you will be a less stressed person.

My 2 cents for the day

Bill...Bill...Bill...d​on't you know the 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS is the spawn of Satan? Taking more pictures won't improve your technique, it will just make the manufacturers of CF cards rich. And certainly every Noob and his brother yearns to hock all the family treasures because the legendary 50mm f/1.0 has insane bokeh when used to photograph the family pets by Christmas tree lights.
My all time favorite is the poor Noob that was told to never ever buy Sterlingtek batteries for use in a 30D, because there is an article that says that a very specific Sterlingtek battery for an older model Olympus film camera had a potential issue.
This forum is loaded with talent, experience and knowledge that far outstrips the other forums combined. Unfortunately, those of us offering advice frequently forget the target level of the intended recipients. I hope that everyone will take a second to read this thread and temper future answers accordingly.

bill in brooklyn -- ask and ye shall receive.

a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse.

from now on i am recommending only the 50 1.8 and the 10-22 for all photographic needs .

ed rader

Along this line I have to ask the obvious question; If the noobs in question can blow K's of thier local currency on photo kit why can't they spend a handfull on a photo book that would answer most of the questions and problems?

Perhaps a sticky with a suggested reading list for various topics may help??

The question of what lens to get is hard I suppose if you don't know what you want, but research will tell a lot.

I wouldn't want to discourage noob questions but it would be nice if more at least tried to research for answers first. There is so much info so easily available these days.

My own most anoying type of post are those that ask for or offer a downsampled jpg as an indication of the sharpness of one lens or another.

Dear Bill

I remember not too long ago you started a thread ranting about advices given to newbies here on POTN are, well, not as appropriate as you would like.

http://www.photography​-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=104667

This time around, I think your intention is still noble though your tone and approach to convey the same message could have been different. Anyway, I appreciate your effort. However, I regret to say that I think the same problem will go on and on until the end of time.

P.S. Some POTN members and moderators are great concerning opinions and advices given to the needy (of course, not in the poverty sense).

I definately agree that a sticky of good photography books would be very useful - whether people bother to read them or not is different. All too often I find myself looking through long lists of books with no reccomendations or reviews and wanting to tell the store owner that it would be cheaper to just teach a chimp a few basic photography terms and stick it in front of a typewriter.

dgcorner wrote:
Bill, interesting rant and rave. I see where you're coming from, and I do agree with you -- that we need to offer constructive advice or criticism based on the problem rather than what "we" think things should be.

The reality, however, is that the world is made up of a gazzilion individuals, each of them unique in his/her own way... It is what makes the world a diverse and interesting place to live in.

Bottom line is, we can only control what we/I dish out... but not others. Learn to live with it and you will be a less stressed person.

My 2 cents for the day

Well said. While I understand what bill's points, but if everytime a noob question comes up, and we all reply with "go read the manual, or go read a book", the forum would became boring, I think.

Bill,

good points and I tend to agree with you. However, there might be a few overstatements in your rant:

1) actually, when OP's forget to tell what kind of photos they take, usually one of the first posts is "hey, you forgot to tell us your budget and/or what things you like to take pictures of".

2) From my own experience: I bought a 70-200 f/4 when I was still a real newbie (even didn't take photos in RAW, imagine!). So I couldn't really exploit the full possibilities of this wonderful lens. Now that I've grown up a bit, I start to realise what a fantastic lens I have. This little white tube (admittedly expensive) has taught me a few valuable things about photography...

Nevertheless, your main point holds. We must tell people to try to use their current gear to its limit, only then invest in more stuff.

PeteR.

Good point here, Bill.

You might point out to the newbie who has been advised by the trustworthy Ritz/Wolf/whatever camera shop salesperson that he should really spend the extra money for the high quality Quantaray lens how lucky he is that the evil POTN forum members did not interfere with his purchasing decision

I read the threads you mentioned.

An example ... Can't comment much on it, as I don't own that lens.
However, the answer given by somebody else was that the 17-85 is soft (when used wide open) between 17-24 mm. How else would you call that?

In each of this threads, the person asking the question received a lot of very useful and helpful advice in a very short timeframe. Most posters actually suggested that the problem was not the equipment, but rather the missing experience. I fail to see anything wrong with that.

It is rants like yours that do not improve a single thing and help nobody (except maybe yourself, if you feel better now ).

Best regards,
Andy

I agree with most of what you said. The biggest thing for that I really don't understand is why people spend $4,000 without first learning something about photography beforehand. They buy this gear, then shoot in green square mode and wonder why 25% of their photos are overexposed, and 25% are underexposed.

Switching to a DSLR was a big step for me, but I had been shooting seriously with my point and shoot for a while, and shot in manual mode on my A75. I got some fantastic night photos with that A75 just by using a teeny tabletop tripod and proper technique (2 second timer, proper metering, etc.) We all know people who just blew $4,000 on camera gear want good photos fast (well, technically good anyway...the artistic part of it may or may not come ever). So...how about this for a sticky:

"Things you have to know before you can begin to worry about additional gear."

That sticky should contain information on the relationship between aperture / shutter speed and ISO as it relates to exposure level. (ie, a stop smaller aperture + a stop slower shutter speed = same exposure). It also should explain how aperture, lens focal length, and distance from the subject relate to depth of field. A quick primer on M, Tv, Av modes with descriptions of metering (both what it does, and different types of metering) and the proper use of Exposure Compensation in Av and Tv (and how it relates to flash exposure compensation). Finally, a description of proper hand holding technique and when you have to use a tripod. An added bonus would explain that the crop factor is simply a marketing tool used in order to let people who shot with 35mm film and know what their lenses to on film bodies make the switch to digital without a rough transition. No one says that 35mm film has a crop factor over medium format. The biggest reason for this is that I think a lot of people using APS sensor DSLRs actually think the sensor changes the focal length of the lens.

This would arguably be a pretty long post, but it could be done in about a page to get the general idea.

I'm always at a loss as to how to reply to these guys. We all started somewhere and needed encouragement, but some questions are just begging for "more money than sense" "what do you think the Search button is for? " or "rtfm" responses.

A classic from yesterday was the newbie who'd just bought a 20D & lenses, and asked us what 'jargon' like F 4.5 meant. Had to check it wasn't April Fools Day.

How in the world can you spend that sort of money without any kind of understanding/research​?
He must've known it was the most basic of questions - so why in the world didn't he browse the forums for just a couple of minutes before asking?

I know - it's the impatience of old age setting in!

I think Bill may need a glass of milk and a lie down now.

An interesting, and in places a well thought through argument, and do you know what............. ?

It will change nothing

It's only a web forum

The answer: what might look like $4000 to you looks only like $4 to Bill Gates.

Once a poster commented "This forum is about two hobbies: photography and buying photography stuff". He was right, I think.

P.