Canon and future of DSLR's

What camera do you own now that you know the R to be a step backwards? I have owned the R so I may know a bit about this versus the theorists.

The RP is a mirrorless 6d2, the R a mirrorless 5d4, more or less.

Archibald wrote in post #19326044
Yeah, similar with me. My 90D is a great camera, but doesn't get much use now since going mirrorless.

I think Mike is concerned about high entry costs and the learning curve - plus the obsoleting of some of his skills. I can see that. But once you have the gear and experience with it, there is no going back.

The entry costs are a reality. I had to sell my 400 DO II to fund some of it. I doubt I’ll see a big F4 prime again.

One reason I got it was so I could AF at F8 with a 2X and DLSR. Then the R came out. If ML came out before I got that lens it probably would changed my path. It was an awesome lens none the less.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19326098
What camera do you own now that you know the R to be a step backwards? I have owned the R so I may know a bit about this versus the theorists.

The RP is a mirrorless 6d2, the R a mirrorless 5d4, more or less.

R has the same sensor as the 5D4. I’m really wish the R5 had been 30mp.

Canon never confirmed the R has the 5d4 sensor, they simply said a similar sensor. Could be slightly different to allow for EYE AF perhaps? Perhaps I missed an interview though where canon finally verified the sensor?

That being said, there are a few other issues where the R isn’t quite the same tool as the 5d4 but close.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19326098
What camera do you own now that you know the R to be a step backwards? I have owned the R so I may know a bit about this versus the theorists.

The RP is a mirrorless 6d2, the R a mirrorless 5d4, more or less.

I do not own any camera that has 60Hz view update rate, other than a P&S. The new R5/R6 are 120Hz, which is my own threshhold for acceptability.
Relating back to dSLR days, the 20D was the first acceptable dSLR for a variety of reasons.

And the control bar, which has since been abandoned by Canon, was not popular in its implementation compared to more classic controls like found in R5/R6.

That only matters when shooting bursts, that refresh rate, whether accurate or not, doesn’t come into play with any other type of shoot.

The control bar doesn’t make the R a backwards camera to any dslr, so I have to disregard that.

If you are saying the R is a backwards step to the R5/R6, that is a different discussion entirely. Moving from a dslr to the R doesn’t seem like a backwards step really. You gain things at a reasonable price that exceed your dslr capabilities, not as many as an R6/R5, but still a gain for most shooters. This may not quite be true however if you own a 5d4 or 1dx series.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19326107
That only matters when shooting bursts, that refresh rate, whether accurate or not, doesn’t come into play with any other type of shoot.

The control bar doesn’t make the R a backwards camera to any dslr, so I have to disregard that.

If you are saying the R is a backwards step to the R5/R6, that is a different discussion entirely. Moving from a dslr to the R doesn’t seem like a backwards step really. You gain things at a reasonable price that exceed your dslr capabilities, not as many as an R6/R5, but still a gain for most shooters. This may not quite be true however if you own a 5d4 or 1dx series.

A race car or baseball travels 13" in 1/120 sec, vs. travelling 26" in 1/60 sec. if you are takimg a photo based upon where it (the car) is positioned in the viewfinder, it will have travelled that distance farther than when your eye is seeing it. And if you are shooting video, your aim is similarly lagged.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19326104
Canon never confirmed the R has the 5d4 sensor, they simply said a similar sensor. Could be slightly different to allow for EYE AF perhaps? Perhaps I missed an interview though where canon finally verified the sensor?

That being said, there are a few other issues where the R isn’t quite the same tool as the 5d4 but close.

True. The only clue was that until recently it was the only ML body that had Camera profiles in LR and PS. Adobe just copied and used the 5D4 profiles. Who knows for sure but that’s all we had to go by.

umphotography wrote in post #19325911
What I read teamspeed saying , and others, is that mirrorless is better because you can get 30 shots on an electric shutter and pick out the best shot...wth...how is that or the equipment making you a better photographer.....it is not....its basically automatic eye focus and automatic spray and prey. The only skill set you need is a credit card and to open and read an owners manual......My 1Dx2 does 14fps....I have never done a 14 frame burst when Im in the field shooting. I get pretty good shots. Why do I need a mirrorless that does 30......I reading posts from guys that fill a 64mb card in about 2-3 hours..1500 images ...thats insane. Its darn sure not controlled thought out photography........May​be im showing my age

The fact that you can shoot 30 fps doesn’t mean you have to. As you know I have the R6 and it does 20 fps with the electronic shutter. I always shoot in ES mode but hardly ever do 20 fps. It’s usually 3 or 4 shots (you can learn to control the number of shots in ES mode). Like you I too do not shoot in long bursts. Never have. Going mirrorless for me was the logical choice but the transition wasn’t easy, it took time. But I love my gear now, the R6, the RF lenses that I bought. And it’s not even about any specific ability that a DSLR doesn’t have (although there are quite a few of those). It’s the whole experience, it’s hard to explain. I thought I would keep my 1D4 as a second camera but it has been gathering dust since getting the R6. Right now I can’t imagine ever shooting birds with a DSLR again.

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19326113
The fact that you can shoot 30 fps doesn’t mean you have to. As you know I have the R6 and it does 20 fps with the electronic shutter. I always shoot in ES mode but hardly ever do 20 fps. It’s usually 3 or 4 shots (you can learn to control the number of shots in ES mode). Like you I too do not shoot in long bursts. Never have. Going mirrorless for me was the logical choice but the transition wasn’t easy, it took time. But I love my gear now, the R6, the RF lenses that I bought. And it’s not even about any specific ability that a DSLR doesn’t have (although there are quite a few of those). It’s the whole experience, it’s hard to explain. I thought I would keep my 1D4 as a second camera but it has been gathering dust since getting the R6. Right now I can’t imagine ever shooting birds with a DSLR again.

Add a little time and you and Mike are in total agreement:

Mike said January 2022: What you have with a mirrorless electric shutter is basically a video clip with 30 second bursts....and now go pick your best shot

Levina said January 2020: Personally I don't see the need for 20 fps. That's almost video. You might as well film the scene and take out frames then. To me that's not photography any more.

I find the need for high fps debate tiring. It's not a need but it is an available feature. Why not use it when it could be an advantage?
Experience, anticipation and timing are useful skills for a photographer and will maximise chance of getting 'the shot' without high fps. No debate there.
There are plenty of times no amount of skill will get the shot, only luck will. There is a limit to human ability.

I shoot raptors often. They blink a lot, usually just with their nictitating membrane (a third eyelid).
Taking single shots using all the skill in the world does not allow for this problem. High fps does. A few shots taken at high frame rate, not 20 frames for a 20fps camera, just a few frames, will avoid getting a great shot ruined by a smokey eye due to the membrane. Taking a single shot then reviewing then taking a second shot if the first caught the blink would work, if the raptor is still there, but why do that? Some feeling of being a pro because you don't need no stinking high fps?

A friend of mine had a surprise fly by of a Peregrine falcon and somehow managed to get it in frame and even with 20fps only managed 1 shot of the falcon which looked great, except for......smokey eye. 30fps may well have been enough of an increase to get a nice eye. It was a great display of skill to get the shot, an R3 or A1 would have been more likely to have got the perfect shot, simply due to higher frame rate. (I would have been unlikely to get any shot, even with 100fps.)

Frodge wrote in post #19325549
It's just a big eff you to all the Ef Mount people. Think of all the money invested in lenses that will just be garbage at that point. There is not a big reason to change the Mount. They do it for money only. Will there be an announcement when they put out the last dslr? Because I'll surely buy a fresh on for my lens collection.

It depends on your own perspective.
Particularly landscape shooters are very happy they can use their EF lenses on an RF camera using the Dropin-filter adapter.

This is why, in my opinion, Canon has done the complete opposite off eff you. The RF mount introduction has not just allowed full compatibility, they have provided some advantages for those that can use them.
Three adapters were released, the basic cheap adapter, a little more expense for the control ring adapter, significantly more for the Dropin filter adapter which can provide a much easier filter use experience.
I think without doubt the most un eff you mount change ever done by any manufacturer.

Choderboy wrote in post #19326123
Add a little time and you and Mike are in total agreement:

Mike said January 2022: What you have with a mirrorless electric shutter is basically a video clip with 30 second bursts....and now go pick your best shot

Levina said January 2020: Personally I don't see the need for 20 fps. That's almost video. You might as well film the scene and take out frames then. To me that's not photography any more.

LOL
I still stand by what I said then. And 30 frames per second is video for real.

Which is not to say that if there’s action, I won’t press down the shutter button hard. Of course I do. I did so with my 1D bodies and I do so with the R6.

To me, real Video is the real spray and pray.

Still.

Photo from Choderboy's gallery.
Image hosted by forum (1134926)

Choderboy wrote in post #19326136
To me, real Video is the real spray and pray.

Still.

Gallery photo (hosted):
posted by Choderboy originally in forum: Sony Digital Cameras

Video. I had no idea of the hilarious thing that would happen 33 seconds in....
https://vimeo.com/6472​50152

...guaranteed to capture a race car that is moving 90mph only once every 52" of travel, at 30fps! But admittedly 25% better than once every 65' of motion, at 24 fps!
Truly spray and pray.