Sunrise Technique Advice Please

Morning all,

I'm wanting to take a sunrise image in the morning, with a long vertical orange strip through the water as the sun gets slightly higher, possibly 1,2,3 minutes

First question, although focus will be on the sea, will any damage to the sensor occur by having the sun pointing straight(ish) at the camera (Canon R6)?

Second question, do you think it would be better using an ND filter instead to take the glare from the sun and maybe, by virtue of being able to slow down the shutter speed, increase the vertical strip?

Thanks all

Hmm. I can't give any advice about the how prolonged exposure to the sun would affect a mirrorless sensor. In an SLR, of course, the light goes to the viewfinder and only hits the sensor when the shutter is released. Given that a mirrorless camera is likely to be my next one, I'm interested in the answer to this question. My concern is that this might be a little-discussed negative consequence of the mirrorless revolution.

To address another aspect of the sunrise shot, give some consideration to putting something interesting in the foreground. A sunrise happens every 24-hours in most of the populated parts of the planet, contributing to the gazillions of sunrise/set shots that are out there. Well, that's an exaggeration; a web search revealed only 610,000,000. It's what's in the foreground that makes or breaks a sunrise/set shot, unless you had the luck to encounter a rare and uniquely amazing cloud structure.

Thanks very much for the reply.

I have considered the foreground as much as I can, but not a great deal.

We are at a beach house and where the sun will rise, there are some volcanic looking rocks but they don't protrude a great deal. They will be in the shot though

joedlh wrote in post #19331495
Hmm. I can't give any advice about the how prolonged exposure to the sun would affect a mirrorless sensor. In an SLR, of course, the light goes to the viewfinder and only hits the sensor when the shutter is released. Given that a mirrorless camera is likely to be my next one, I'm interested in the answer to this question. My concern is that this might be a little-discussed negative consequence of the mirrorless revolution.

.

Hmm, this sounds like an opportunity to take an old digital P&S, mount it on a tripod pointed at the sun and let it sit there in one spot for a few minutes with a relatively large aperture selected!

I don't know how long is too long, but every time I turn my R on, it says - Don't leave the camera pointed at the sun. You probably don't want to find out how long is too long. Also, doesn't taking a minute long exposure of the sun pretty much leave you with a picture that is totally white?

patrick j wrote in post #19331708
I don't know how long is too long, but every time I turn my R on, it says - Don't leave the camera pointed at the sun. You probably don't want to find out how long is too long. Also, doesn't taking a minute long exposure of the sun pretty much leave you with a picture that is totally white?

The issue is not only taking a photo with too long exposure time...the issue for the SLR was simply pointing it to the sun, and a hole could be burned into the cloth shutter curtain, although I have no knowledge of how much time that took. With the MIL, sensors could be similarly damaged simply by the sun hitting the sensor surface while aiming at the sun and looking at the viewfinder with tripod mounted camera, just as dSLRs with open shutter have had pixels burn out by lasers. Interesting to see the heat damage to metal shutter, sensor, and lens iris reported i in the Lensrental story...

Sony warning
https://petapixel.com …mage-its-cameras-sensors/

Youtube video of laser damage to MIL, without the laser shining into the lens!
https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=B3MzObRgaA0

Sun damage potential
https://uwmadscience.n​ews.wisc.edu …o%20press%20the​%20shutter.
"When filming, the camera’s light sensor is exposed to the light for longer, and intense direct sunlight can damage a camera sensor in only a few minutes."

Actual camera damage story by Lensrentals, due to eclipse photography damage:
https://www.lensrental​s.com …he-solar-eclipse-of-2017/

Thank you very much everyone, for your replies.

After reading everything, especially the last very extensive post, I've decided that it's not worth it at all

Wilt wrote in post #19331772
the issue for the SLR was simply pointing it to the sun, and a hole could be burned into the cloth shutter curtain

A bit off topic - I've heard this in the past, and am just curious about it. I would think that the mirror in an SLR would prevent the sun from hitting the shutter curtain, or are the mirrors actually transparent enough to allow the light through?

tuttifrutti wrote in post #19331490
Morning all,

I'm wanting to take a sunrise image in the morning, with a long vertical orange strip through the water as the sun gets slightly higher, possibly 1,2,3 minutes

First question, although focus will be on the sea, will any damage to the sensor occur by having the sun pointing straight(ish) at the camera (Canon R6)?

Second question, do you think it would be better using an ND filter instead to take the glare from the sun and maybe, by virtue of being able to slow down the shutter speed, increase the vertical strip?

Thanks all

Hi,

I'm not sure if you meant exposing at time intervals or long exposures in excess of a few minutes, but both can be done safely just fine. Just need to clarify.

You can do what you've described. It will be fine. Think about how many sun set images are out there by everyone and their cousin with these cameras. Why didn't they damage their sensor? It's because very little energy comes through tiny apertures in short time frames. Same with sun rises. Same with mid-day sun in a shot. You're fine with it. You're not spending enough time with the disc at focus for it to be a problem with a tiny aperture. Pointing a telephoto at the sun and leaving it exposing as video for an hour? Yes, bad idea without proper energy handling filtration. But pointing a small aperture wide angle lens for a bit to take a photo of a landscape with sun in it? My god, there are billions of these made EVERY YEAR with small aperture cameras and smartphone cameras, etc. They're not fried because they're tiny apertures and letting through tiny amounts of energy.

If you're concerned, just cover the lens when you're not actively exposing or composing, etc to limit how much energy is being put through the system when not in use. If you're extra concerned, just add an IR block filter and reduce the energy by 52%. But it's totally fine with a small aperture lens for short duration. Again, billions per year are made.

Are you talking about something similar to this?

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/G5YH​Wu

tomj wrote in post #19332027
A bit off topic - I've heard this in the past, and am just curious about it. I would think that the mirror in an SLR would prevent the sun from hitting the shutter curtain, or are the mirrors actually transparent enough to allow the light through?

If you read one of the links I posted (lensrental report), you see actual shutter curtain damage, sensor damage, mirror frame damage, and lens iris damage in different model Canon cameras returned from rental!

Wilt wrote in post #19332048
If you read one of the links I posted (lensrental report), you see actual shutter curtain damage, sensor damage, mirror frame damage, and lens iris damage in different model Canon cameras returned from rental!

The Lens Rental article is a bit unique. It is from equipment damaged taking photos of the eclipse and most likely the users had the camera trained on the sun for a long time and not the just risen sun, but the sun directly overhead. Pointing the camera at the sun for the few seconds it takes to take a sunrise/sunset picture isn't going to damage the equipment. As MalVeauX pointed out, there are literally billions of these type of photos. Hecl, I have maybe a hundred or so myself. However, as your post points out, pointing the camera at the sun for any length of time is most definitely a bad idea. Best, point it, focus, shoot, and un-point or cover the lens.

MalVeauX wrote in post #19332043
Hi,

If you're concerned, just cover the lens when you're not actively exposing or composing, etc.

Are you talking about something similar to this?


Very best,

You were at 1/320th of a second, he is talking about 1 to 3 minutes.

gjl711 wrote in post #19332068
The Lens Rental article is a bit unique. It is from equipment damaged taking photos of the eclipse and most likely the users had the camera trained on the sun for a long time and not the just risen sun, but the sun directly overhead. Pointing the camera at the sun for the few seconds it takes to take a sunrise/sunset picture isn't going to damage the equipment. As MalVeauX pointed out, there are literally billions of these type of photos. Hecl, I have maybe a hundred or so myself. However, as your post points out, pointing the camera at the sun for any length of time is most definitely a bad idea. Best, point it, focus, shoot, and un-point or cover the lens.

Ergo my suggestion of conducting a durability test using an out-of-date P&S, which has an exposed sensor in order to provide framing information via the rear LCD...constantly exposed sensor like MIL. That video of medical laser being used shows instantaneous damage from lasers do happen, and that is higher power than concert laser shows which might shine directly on the sensor and cause damage. Sunset/sunrise have the benefit of long path thru atmosphere, which is how we can get away with looking directly at a sunset/rise without damage, while trying to look for as long at high noon is not possible.

patrick j wrote in post #19332073
You were at 1/320th of a second, he is talking about 1 to 3 minutes.

But did he specifically state or mean that he was going to expose for 3 minutes? It's ambiguous, which is why I asked too. It just stated from sun rising, 1, 2, 3 minutes, which could also mean increments every minute or so as it rises to get the longest reflection across the water. I'm not even sure of the exact photo the OP is trying to create, which is why I asked that too.

If he means long exposure for 3 minutes, then sure, I can agree, not going to be a good idea without appropriate filtration, but its still completely doable and safe with just ND filters even and small tiny apertures.

By the way, if anyone is interested and in the future hits this thread, the energy that is problematic is not from UV. UV makes the least contribution to energy that the camera will see, the bulk of the energy is coming from visible spectrum and infrared. Obviously if you're imaging in visible spectrum you cannot block that and keep a color image. So if you want to block the most energy you can, it's going to be with an IR block filter. You can go as far as getting a UV/IR block filter (these are common) but again the UV contributes very small amount, around ~ 5% or so to the energy we're talking here, versus IR which contributes ~ 52% and visible spectrum is the other ~ 43% of that energy in terms of what you can get to handle wavelength blocking for thermal purposes. So if you want to block heat, get an IR blocking filter. They're inexpensive, but make sure its on optically flat glass (ie, at least 1/4th to 1/6th wave).

ND filters block almost all wavelengths (UV, visible spectrum and IR), so they can be used to long-expose the sun like this on a small aperture lens, the energy load is minimal. It's safe to do too. If you're super paranoid about it, you can add an IR block filter on top of this.

So my previous example was a single shot at short exposure, here's the same location a bit before, but long exposure for the same example:

Single 10 stop, 30 seconds exposure time at sunrise. 1 more ND would put it at 60 seconds. 1 more on top of that and we're at 2 minutes of exposure time for the same exposure. Lots of time on the sensor, but at low, low energy, so its safe, with these small aperture systems.

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/GsPh​A1

There is no way your going to be able to take any 2~3 minute exposure of the sun even by stacking a dozen 10 stop NDs. Just reviewing some of my pics, they range from f/5.6 1/400 to f/16 1/8000. The sun is really bright.