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Thread started 21 Jun 2022 (Tuesday) 10:08
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-= Canon EOS R7 owners unite! Post photos and discuss.

 
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Jul 30, 2022 16:13 |  #1846

Jeff USN Photog 72-76 wrote in post #19410468 (external link)
Back to the photo part of the thread.

Went to the pond last night, not much going on but a father and son fishing and a couple crows, slow evening but they made a couple of catches. Pond is getting low!

I still had Animal Eye AF set and didn't change it, seems to have done ok, although the fish may be the sharpest.

Canon R7
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Hosted photo: posted by Jeff USN Photog 72-76 in
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Fish-eye AF:-P




  
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Jul 30, 2022 17:41 |  #1847

Tom W wrote in post #19410518 (external link)
What were your AF case / settings?

Case 1


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Jul 30, 2022 18:09 |  #1848

Taxboy wrote in post #19410478 (external link)
I've decided to make the jump from my 7Dii and go for an R7 (although it will probably be close to Christmas before it arrives !!). I'm also looking at my current lens line up and considering consolidating for that reason always happy to take peoples thoughts on where to go. Subject matter is wildlife / birds, aviation and I'm getting more into landscape / gardens again.

Current lenses
Canon ef-s 10-22, Tamron 17-50 f2.8 non VC, Tamron 90mm f2.8 macro, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 400 f5.6

I'm thinking I should replace the 17-50 with either an EF 24-70 (used) or more likely an RF 24-105 f4 as this would fill the gap between 50 and 70 mm. I'm leaning towards the 24-105 as combined with the 10-22 would give me a lightweight walkabout combo but still offer good image quality plus I would gain the benefits from a more modern RF lens

This then got me thinking should I trade the 70-200 and 400 for an RF 100-500 which would trim my camera bag...but also my bank account !!

The final alternative is do nothing until the camera arrives and see how these older lenses perform especially the non Canon brands

All input appreciated

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19410538 (external link)
I would advice your final alternative and that is to do nothing until the camera arrives and just use it with your older lenses. The results might surprise you. So wait a bit before you start replacing your current lenses.

One thing I am wondering about is the Diffraction Limited Aperture (DLA) of the R7. It is only f/5.2. On the R6 it is double that at f/10.6. I had no idea about this but stumbled upon this information just a few days ago on the TDP site, in the R7 review. So I now wonder if that is causing or contributing to the softness I saw in birds a bit farther away, for which I obviously used the RF 100-500mm @500mm which means shooting at f/7.1. So with the R7 having a DLA of f/5.2, diffraction surely has a softening effect when shooting at f/7.1. Maybe the tech guys can say something about that.

So I'm wondering if maybe the EF 400/5.6 would actually be a better match with the R7. With the 1.6x crop factor and 32.5 megapixels, 400mm should be plenty reach. Jeff is reach limited and shoots with a 400/5.6L now and with great results. Of course a zoom lens is more versatile. There is that. Personally I have no need for a zoom. I bought the 100-500 for the 500mm but this is very personal.

By the way, I have the Tamron 17-50 non VC also. Such a fantastic lens. Crazy sharp.

I totally agree with Levina that you should wait to get the camera and try things out before deciding on any changes.

I will say that my old Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di II SP has given me some intermittent problems with the R7 (and the M50 II). It seems to work without issues on my T2i. Curious to see what you find.




  
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Tom ­ W
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Jul 30, 2022 20:47 |  #1849

Jeff USN Photog 72-76 wrote in post #19410626 (external link)
Case 1

Thanks


Tom
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Lester ­ Wareham
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Lester Wareham.
     
Jul 31, 2022 00:19 |  #1850

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19410588 (external link)
I was thinking about how those two things - DLA and stopping down for sharper results - are conflicting.

Bryan (TDP) writes that softness from DLA occurs at the pixel level? So not much to be concerned about then, unless you want to crop.

DLA is only relevant for 2-D flat subjects, once you move to subjects with depth ie off of the plane of sharp focus the depth of field dominates.

In real life there are other things like tiny subject movements also.

I ignore DLA myself.


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Jul 31, 2022 05:48 |  #1851

Lester Wareham wrote in post #19410712 (external link)
DLA is only relevant for 2-D flat subjects, once you move to subjects with depth ie off of the plane of sharp focus the depth of field dominates.

In real life there are other things like tiny subject movements also.

I ignore DLA myself.

Right. Good to know. :-P
Thanks!


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Jul 31, 2022 05:56 |  #1852

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19410771 (external link)
Right. Learning here. :-P
Thanks!

Well it is just my view.

It is true that peak sharpness (@DLA) will be over a wafer thin bit of subject.

Possibly useful to know for copy work on a copy stand, assuming lens aberrations are well controlled at DLA.


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Jul 31, 2022 06:30 |  #1853

PinholeR5 wrote in post #19410632 (external link)
I totally agree with Levina that you should wait to get the camera and try things out before deciding on any changes.

I will say that my old Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di II SP has given me some intermittent problems with the R7 (and the M50 II). It seems to work without issues on my T2i. Curious to see what you find.

Thanks for that will be placing an pre order this week. One UK retailer has estimated 2-4 months, whilst another refused to estimate citing the information was commercially sensitive !!




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Post edited over 1 year ago by John Sheehy. (2 edits in all)
     
Jul 31, 2022 07:45 |  #1854

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19410538 (external link)
I would advice your final alternative and that is to do nothing until the camera arrives and just use it with your older lenses. The results might surprise you. So wait a bit before you start replacing your current lenses.

One thing I am wondering about is the Diffraction Limited Aperture (DLA) of the R7. It is only f/5.2. On the R6 it is double that at f/10.6. I had no idea about this but stumbled upon this information just a few days ago on the TDP site, in the R7 review. So I now wonder if that is causing or contributing to the softness I saw in birds a bit farther away, for which I obviously used the RF 100-500mm @500mm which means shooting at f/7.1. So with the R7 having a DLA of f/5.2, diffraction surely has a softening effect when shooting at f/7.1. Maybe the tech guys can say something about that.

If you look at the pixel level, you will see the same diffraction blur with double the f-number on the R6, but if you normalize to sensor area, the blur will be twice as large for the R6 with double the f-number. If you halve the f-number with the R6 to be the same as the R7, then the diffraction blur is the same normalized to sensor area, but the pixelation blockiness and AA filter blur are twice as large with the R6.

The concept of DLA is mathematically correct and consistent, but that does not mean that it is directly meaningful in any given situation, when taken at face value. It completely ignores how many pixels the subject or composition is composed of. Pixel-level metrics are meaningless until you take the number of pixels into account. Also, there is no hard limit occurring at those ratios of pixel size to f-number; it is just an arbitrary point chosen by someone, influenced by their philosophy, in a long tail of trade-offs.

What really matters when all is said and done, is how large the diffraction blur is relative to the image size or subject size, including any cropping. Higher pixel densities do not make the blur larger, with the same subject, distance, f-number, and focal length.

When you were shooting those birds like that kestrel in the field, the blur from the air and any mis-focus that the air would have caused were clearly the greatest blurs, and that is what made it impossible for the R7 to get any significant detail benefit in that situation.

When multiple blurs are combined, the blurs that are smaller have even less influence than their blur size would suggest. Blur adds "in quadrature" so if you had one blur of 4 pixels radius and one blur of 1 pixel radius, they do not combine to become 5 pixels; they combine as the square root of the sum of the blurs squared which is the square root of 16 + 1 (17) = 4.123 pixels. IOW, the 4x smaller blur did not increase the total blur size by 25%; it only increased by 3.1%. So, diffraction is only a big part of total blur when there are no other much larger blurs.




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Jul 31, 2022 07:58 |  #1855

Immaculens wrote in post #19410584 (external link)
Bryan (TDP) seems to always mention DLA vs most other reviewers. I think its interesting that Canon introduced two rf-s lenses that are certainly not aperture optimized for best IQ regarding DLA.

While Bryan Peterson, well known instructor and author of Understanding Exposure is not concerned with DLA effects.

I guess we have to know our lenses... both the DLA and the best IQ obtained by stopping down the aperture - which we're told f8 is often the best...

That's a generalization based on a certain group of lenses that may have significant aberration, but tell that to a person with a 400/2.8L and see if they agree. The best big telephoto lenses are sharpest wide open or close to it, well below f/8, as are many of the better lenses for compact cameras with very small sensors.

Anyway, small pixels and high f-numbers never combine to something worse than the same f-number with larger pixels, normalized by sensor area.




  
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Jul 31, 2022 08:08 |  #1856

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19410588 (external link)
I was thinking about how those two things - DLA and stopping down for sharper results - are conflicting.

Bryan (TDP) writes that softness from DLA occurs at the pixel level? So not much to be concerned about then, unless you want to crop.

Pixel level isn't necessarily relevant to cropping, either, because you'd be cropping the R6, too, and will be left with 75% less pixels, so any given pixel-level flaw on the R6 will be twice as wide and tall with the R6 in the final result.




  
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Jul 31, 2022 08:34 |  #1857

Whoops! Look like I got tricked by something that was too good to be true.

When I reported AF at very high f-ratios with the R7 and its new Display Simulation option for DOF, I chose targets and lighting where DOF was not obvious in the EVF. Yesterday, I tried it again with "deeper" scenes and when I half-pressed the shutter, I saw the DOF get shallow. So, the R7 does not keep then lens stopped down as it starts to focus, at least the way I have the camera set up. So, when I wrote that it focused at f/192, it clearly was not, because yesterday I tried f/40 in daylight, and the aperture opened up for pre-focus.

It does still seem to help somewhat for the AI to see the pre-focus EVF before focusing, though. I chose a narrow subject just past MFD after focusing on the far background at both f/40 and f/9, and when the camera was set to f/9, it would not focus at all, with several attempts, but when set to f/40, it was slow to focus but could. In any event, a little help at f40 is not very useful, because I have no intention to do much shooting at f/40.

So, it may be only for pre-AF focus that the EVF is looking through the shooting aperture.

Sorry if anyone bought an R7 for this alleged stopped-down focus feature (not likely).




  
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Jul 31, 2022 09:09 |  #1858

John Sheehy wrote in post #19410835 (external link)
Pixel level isn't necessarily relevant to cropping, either, because you'd be cropping the R6, too, and will be left with 75% less pixels, so any given pixel-level flaw on the R6 will be twice as wide and tall with the R6 in the final result.

So because I’d be cropping the R6 too, pixel level softness on the R7 isn’t relevant to cropping? That’s a really strange argument.

Cropping is very much relevant, regardless of camera, especially when images were shot at higher ISO levels. The more you crop the more noise will show and the less sharp an image becomes. Crop too much and an image falls apart. Everybody with eyes can see that. With a camera like the R7 with its high density sensor its just worse than on cameras with low(er) density sensors. In my opinion, based on my experience with the R7, you can do two things with the R7: shoot at low ISO, and then you can crop a lot, or shoot at high(er) ISO and you can’t crop. You can’t do both. Not if IQ is important to you.


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Capn ­ Jack
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Jul 31, 2022 09:27 |  #1859

Levina de Ruijter wrote in post #19410857 (external link)
So because I’d be cropping the R6 too, pixel level softness on the R7 isn’t relevant to cropping? That’s a really strange argument.

Cropping is very much relevant, regardless of camera, especially when images were shot at higher ISO levels. The more you crop the more noise will show and the less sharp an image becomes. Crop too much and an image falls apart. Everybody with eyes can see that. With a camera like the R7 with its high density sensor its just worse than on cameras with low(er) density sensors. In my opinion, based on my experience with the R7, you can do two things with the R7: shoot at low ISO, and then you can crop a lot, or shoot at high(er) ISO and you can’t crop. You can’t do both. Not if IQ is important to you.

And the noise that reduces cropping at high ISO isn't related to DLA, either. That noise is another thing that makes DLA mostly irrelevant to us. DLA is literally lost in the noise.

I only had to deal with DLA when doing microscopy. The entire optical path was rigid, the subject wasn't moving, I had very good optics, and a very narrow part of the image in focus, and I was often imaging a small wavelength range (fluorescence- diffraction equations include wavelength). Essentially the situation @Lester Wareham mentioned in post 1854 of this thread).




  
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Jul 31, 2022 09:36 |  #1860

Capn Jack wrote in post #19410870 (external link)
And the noise that reduces cropping at high ISO isn't related to DLA, either. That noise is another thing that makes DLA mostly irrelevant to us. DLA is literally lost in the noise.

Yes, that is indeed what I take away from the responses to my question, that “DLA is […] lost in the noise.”
I wonder why TDP put a bit of emphasis on it, which got me wondering about it. Thanks, Jack.


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