Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #19441972
All my old memories of Vivitar are crappy cheap lenses and cheap flash units.

Back in the 70s, Vivitar fielded a few very nice lenses, "Series-1," equivalent in their time to Sigma Art lenses. And loads of newspaper photographers lived by the Vivitar 283 flash. A lot of people, including me, were using them all the way into the 2000s. The only thing that killed them off was that their trigger voltage was too high for the newer digital cameras.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19482486
Again not an issue in these here parts so i don’t know what to tell you. Car theft is more prevalent than people coming out to a hacked car. Also 15-18k stolen cats a year according to a year out to go stats just isn’t that big an issue. Maybe 2022 stats are higher but again it is just a tiny percentage of vehicles on the roads. Like about .009% of registered vehicles, so it’s not a huge issue in the US… there are about 40x more vehicles stolen annually.

The cars are being stolen to hack them apart.

gjl711 wrote in post #19485563
I'm wondering if that isn't already happening at least locally. Here in Dallas, EVs seem to have been adopted aggressively. Tesla's use to be tough to spot only a year or so ago. Now you can't come up to a busy interseacion without one ot 3 of the cars being a Tesla. Also seeing a lot of Rivians, the electric Mustangs, Volts, and a couple of others are just starting to show up as well. I think in another year or two, maybe 1/2 of the cars will be electric around here.

Well, now, if you ask a long-time Dallas resident, they will cite, "All those new Californians that have moved here."

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19485601
Regarding brakes, EV brakes last 2-3x than ICE vehicles, battery packs are good for a decade or more (warranties are good for 8 years so that means life well after that). Also no bulbs, but that is the same as ICE. Not sure how old your cars are that need bulbs… EVs are all LED like many vehicles.

Just clearing up some misconceptions…

No oil, no gas, no power steering fluid, no coolant, no air filters, no transmission fluid, no related filters, no differential fluid, no plugs, no timing chain, etc.

We do have tires and suspension and alignment and cabin filter and wipers/fluid and eventual battery replacement. Brake pads eventually as well but for us not likely until 75-85k miles.

I'm an old man; it's highly unlikely I'll ever be able to afford an EV. I'll take one if someone wants to give me one, however. And although retired, I'm still pulling in above average income...so if I can't afford an EV, most Americans can't afford an EV.

RDKirk wrote in post #19486367
I'm an old man; it's highly unlikely I'll ever be able to afford an EV. I'll take one if someone wants to give me one, however. And although retired, I'm still pulling in above average income...so if I can't afford an EV, most Americans can't afford an EV.

One of the best bang for the buck EVs on the market now is the GM Bolt. I have heard they have an end of manufacturing date for this however, sometime in the next couple years, but quite frankly for $30K and a range of something like 260mi, it would be an excellent commuter/chores vehicle. The EUV version is a bit larger if the original Bolt is too small, but not a huge amount of extra room. Keep the ICE for trips, but around town, visiting family that is within 100mi, etc the bolt is a great value.

However that car has quite a following, just like the Volt did before this (but that was a hybrid).

Personally, my EV is a stress reliever, but unlike my camaros and vettes in the past, the last being a 2016 SS, nobody plays with me like they did with my sports cars. Mopars, Beemers, etc, for the most part, zip right up next to me, then don't play. A few do once in a while, the last was a C8 vette some time back, and as we get into motorcycle weather, they always play. People ask how I like it, and I simply say "it isn't a V8 brute, and it is too surgical, you point it, you stab the accelerator, and it does the same thing every time, no drama". Still love my sports cars way more, they had more drama and more playtime with others!

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19486395
One of the best bang for the buck EVs on the market now is the GM Bolt. I have heard they have an end of manufacturing date for this however, sometime in the next couple years, but quite frankly for $30K and a range of something like 260mi, it would be an excellent commuter/chores vehicle. The EUV version is a bit larger if the original Bolt is too small, but not a huge amount of extra room. Keep the ICE for trips, but around town, visiting family that is within 100mi, etc the bolt is a great value.

However that car has quite a following, just like the Volt did before this (but that was a hybrid).

Personally, my EV is a stress reliever, but unlike my camaros and vettes in the past, the last being a 2016 SS, nobody plays with me like they did with my sports cars. Mopars, Beemers, etc, for the most part, zip right up next to me, then don't play. A few do once in a while, the last was a C8 vette some time back, and as we get into motorcycle weather, they always play. People ask how I like it, and I simply say "it isn't a V8 brute, and it is too surgical, you point it, you stab the accelerator, and it does the same thing every time, no drama". Still love my sports cars way more, they had more drama and more playtime with others!

Over the next few weeks, my paid-for minivan will be hauling rocks, soil, grass seed, lumber, and a kit for a new shower. Will that fit into the GM Bolt? Or would I have to rent truck on top of the payments I'd have to make for the Bolt?

Most people (talking about the peak of the bell curve and below) can't truly afford any brand new car these days. We can discuss this again when the supply of used EVs becomes practicable.

RDKirk wrote in post #19486361
The cars are being stolen to hack them apart.

@TeamSpeed has some very poor statistics. One single insurance company had claims for 46,000 stolen catalytic converters for only part of a year (cited earlier in the thread).
That doesn't disprove your comment about hacked cars.

RDKirk wrote in post #19486454
Most people (talking about the peak of the bell curve and below) can't truly afford any brand new car these days. We can discuss this again when the supply of used EVs becomes practicable.

There certainly are many more EVs priced under $30k today, as I discovered when I recently did some digging into starting prices for 'affordable' EV/hybrids being offered.
But a recent article in the newspaper pointed out the median family annual income in US was about $67k, and the median EV being sold was $70k! The article point out that the well-to-do have been buying the costly EVs to supplement their quite pricey ICE toy in the garage.
Per data gathered in 2019
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnn​nibpcajpcglclefindmkaj​/https://theicct.org …ons/EV-equity-feb2021.pdf

"households earning less than $100,000 per year represent 72% of gasoline vehicle purchases, but only 44% of electric vehicle purchases. "

Among used vehicle buyers, the median income of EV buyers in California is $150,000, compared with $90,000 for gasoline vehicle buyers (Turrentine et al., 2018).

An article by David Welch, March 18, 2022 from Hyperdrive states:

"Throw all of those numbers together and that tells me that less than 15% of U.S. drivers can afford a battery-powered set of wheels."

And the cost of ownership of EV particularly affects those of more modest means, in consuming a greater percentage of total income...
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnn​nibpcajpcglclefindmkaj​/https://theicct.org …ons/EV-equity-feb2021.pdf

"due to the dominance of fixed net purchase cost and insurance, average vehicle-owning U.S. households earning less than $25,000 spend 50% of their income on vehicle ownership and operation annually, or about $7,400 (U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2020). In contrast, median-income vehicle-owning households spend approximately 16% of their income, or about $10,000 annually, on vehicle ownership and operation.

so until the initial purchase prices come down, reducing used purchase prices, and also the inventory of used EV grows significantly vs. the demand, EV adoption among the less monied will be inherently limited.

What you may be missing in all this internet searching is the following paradigm adopted by manufacturers:

You build the high end EV vehicles priced very high and sell as many as you can.
Once sales start to drop, then you bring out the more economical versions of those EVs and sell those.
Ditto for base models...

The problem is that many of these manufacturers (all, frankly) haven't hit the point where their higher priced models with all the range and HP have maxed out on sales, so they have no real incentive to build and sell lower priced more basic models.

The Bolt and Leaf are the only real counterpoints to this, but a vast majority of EVs are still considered the more premium offerings. The Ford and GM trucks, Tesla all models, Kia EV6/Hyundai Ioniq, etc. all follow this.

So until sales of the current models and trim levels drop significantly, the lower base trims will likely never enter the markets. This is the reason for the prices you are finding.

However there are EVs around the $30K mark, which is the price tag for many other ICE vehicles like the RAV, higher end civic, corolla, etc, so if things like the Bolt don't sell, it is because people don't want them for one reason or another, not due to the price being too high. The Bolt is a bit of an odd duck, we test drove one.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19486513
What you may be missing in all this internet searching is the following paradigm adopted by manufacturers:

You build the high end EV vehicles priced very high and sell as many as you can.
Once sales start to drop, then you bring out the more economical versions of those EVs and sell those.
Ditto for base models...

The problem is that many of these manufacturers (all, frankly) haven't hit the point where their higher priced models with all the range and HP have maxed out on sales, so they have no real incentive to build and sell lower priced more basic models.

The Bolt and Leaf are the only real counterpoints to this, but a vast majority of EVs are still considered the more premium offerings. The Ford and GM trucks, Tesla all models, Kia EV6/Hyundai Ioniq, etc. all follow this.

So until sales of the current models and trim levels drop significantly, the lower base trims will likely never enter the markets. This is the reason for the prices you are finding.

Explaining the situation does not change the situation.

RDKirk wrote in post #19486514
Explaining the situation does not change the situation.

Sure, didn't say it did, I just wanted the full reasoning to be understood. And also like stated, if one really wanted a decent EV, there are a few that are priced at the same price as many small and mid sized sedans or compact SUVs, so if one could buy one, they could buy an EV, it just comes down to whether they like the selection at that price point. EVs big holdups right now are a) prices for the most part and b) range anxiety, which is a real thing, since ranges are pretty terrible currently, especially dependent on speed, temperatures, etc.

Things I dislike about my EV where my Camaro SS was better:
- My ICE gas tank doesn't shrink by 4% a year (vs battery degradation).
- My ICE gas tank doesn't temporarily shrink by 30-40% in the winter.
- My ICE doesn't drop HP depending on fuel levels, if my vehicle is 450hp, it is 450hp for the duration of the tank on any given day and conditions.
- MY ICE doesn't leak fuel each time I park it for a few days.
- I could fuel my ICE to 100% every single time if I wanted, but it is recommended to only keep EV charged to about 80%
- My ICE can be "charged" up in 5 minutes with more range vs 20-30 minutes on my EV
- Gas prices can fluctuate up and down all the time, electricity at charging stations and at home never drop, they continue to rise
- Sports cars increase in value if you wait long enough, an EV will NEVER increase in value.

Things I like about the EV:
- It is faster, like almost supercar speeds (BUT only if charged from 76% to 100%, but if it is recommended to keep it charged to 80% for daily use, then I never really get the full HP rating, by time I get from home to town, I am already under 75% and that drops over 60hp.)
- I never wait in lines at gas stations, and even almost forget how to pump gas
- Love lack of maintenance or worry of such
- I like the illusion of being more green, but as we know, is generation of electricity, at least in these parts, really all that green?
- I like AWD vs RWD of a sports-oriented vehicle


So taking all of this into consideration, is my EV really worth it? Not really sure even when I consider different starting prices, fuel vs electricity, maintenance vs hardly any, then the increased travel time for long trips, but I lean toward "nope". Right now just for an apples to apples on electricity vs gas, I figure my equivalent gas price for my EV is about $2.25 a gallon (compared to a vehicle. If fuel drops to that level ever, the EV starts to cost more overall.

The individual manufacturer strategy still does not change the MARKET NEED in order to get widespread adoption!

Cherry picking with the early adopters certainly can be financially worthwhile on a PER UNIT basis, but if you sell 1000 times as many units at 50% of the price, the bottom line is still 1000 times as many dollars in sales, equally far more revenue

A. 1000 units at $80000 = $800,000,000
B. 1,000,000 units at $40000 = $4,000,000,000

Wilt wrote in post #19486522
The individual manufacturer strategy still does not change the MARKET NEED in order to get widespread adoption!

Quite frankly, I don't think we want widespread adoption... There are many reasons for this. I am happy where the adoption rate is. I can provide a huge list of reasons we don't want widespread adoption. Don't buy into all that "EV will save the planet" crap, because that isn't true and the downsides of everyone having an EV is pretty impactful.

Just like the mirrorless vs DSLR debates, where I have both, and know very well the ins/outs of each, having 2 ICE and 1 EV, I know the ins/outs of that as well.

Give EVs about 8-10 more years to see how the maturity might change these issues, maybe things will be better then (but I doubt it). If you cannot afford an EV, don't fret, you aren't missing much, it is just "different" and not necessarily "better", just like many of our DSLR vs mirrorless discussions.

I only mentioned the Bolt because it is probably one of the best options for those that do a ton of around-town driving and/or have teenagers. My teens cannot afford huge fuel prices, and we do about 12K miles just around the area a year on top of school travel, so an EV makes alot of sense. We put over 21K on our EV in the last year even. I know there are others in the same situation. You could get a corolla LE for about the same price, but then have fuel and maintenance.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19486516
So taking all of this into consideration, is my EV really worth it? Not really sure even when I consider different starting prices, fuel vs electricity, maintenance vs hardly any, then the increased travel time for long trips, but I lean toward "nope". Right now just for an apples to apples on electricity vs gas, I figure my equivalent gas price for my EV is about $2.25 a gallon (compared to a vehicle. If fuel drops to that level ever, the EV starts to cost more overall.

The maintenance 'difference' is overblown, when you consider total cost of ownership.
If we assume the average driver drives 15000 miles per year, to estimate the 'difference'...

• ICE has one or two oil + filter changes per year (depending upon brand), plus air filter once per year, neither necessary on EV. EV savings...about $300
  
• ICE would need two sets of brake pads in 60000 miles, while the EV might need one. EV savings about $300-400.
  

Not sure where you get 10k more on an EV purchase in my example, but ok. Also in the other extreme, a tesla plaid S costs much less than any equivalent ICE if we want to play that game. Regarding insurance, it isn’t any more either, the insurance cost for our EV was the same as the ICE it replaced.

The Bolt vs a mid sized equivalent car or cx-30/Kona/encore will cost nearly the same and have the same insurance costs if you do your homework. There isn’t any google search that will educate you more than you doing the vehicular searches and comparison in prices, and you calling your insurance provider.