Point and Shoot Cameras are Basically Dead

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19486525
Quite frankly, I don't think we want widespread adoption... There are many reasons for this.

I certainly agree; switching over poses many logistical issues that are in need of eventual resolution to make EV for majority a reality.

1. And in CA, there is the reason that there is INSUFFICIENT SUPPLY CAPACITY already-- even without EV charging being widespread yet -- we are asked to not use electrical appliances until after 9pm when heatwaves push A/C usage.
   
2. Those who live in apartments might have one covered spot to park but without individual electric outputs for each spot. And the parking lots and streets that have to accomodate the extra car(s) per apartment have no electrical supply either.
   

I understand the issues in CA, and is a prime example I would have used.

An EV will cost a family the equivalent electricity as adding anywhere from 1/5 to 1/3 more square footage in your living quarters. If every household was required to have that, the rolling brownouts would be ridiculous, electricity prices skyrocket, and that doesn’t cover on the road supply. Every state would eventually have the same issues, if they were to adopt the same rules, OR if our government decides to keep forcing the issue.

Then to add insult to injury, for those of us in cold climates at least 3 months of the year, the infrastructure needs would go up 30%+ in those months. So rolling brownouts in -20 to 10deg would create a huge set of issues with families trying to keep warm, keep pipes from freezing etc. and be able to get around.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19486548
Not sure where you get 10k more on an EV purchase in my example, but ok. Also in the other extreme, a tesla plaid S costs much less than any equivalent ICE if we want to play that game. Regarding insurance, it isn’t any more either, the insurance cost for our EV was the same as the ICE it replaced.

The Bolt vs a mid sized equivalent car or cx-30/Kona/encore will cost nearly the same and have the same insurance costs if you do your homework. There isn’t any google search that will educate you more than you doing the vehicular searches and comparison in prices, and you calling your insurance provider.

If today only 10% of households can afford to buy EV at today's prices, you can sell 9x the number of vehicles when it is priced more affordably. So 1000 high price becomes 9000 more affordable, on top of the original 1000...I simply rounded up for the generalization of market value.

What was the value of the ICE vs. the value of the Tesla, in your insurance comparison? I have read about higher insurance in more than one article, so it would be good to hear about your experience as an affected consumer.

Wilt wrote in post #19486555
If today only 10% of households can afford to buy EV at today's prices, you can sell 9x the number of vehicles when it is priced more affordably. So 1000 high price becomes 9000 more affordable, on top of the original 1000...I simply rounded up for the generalization of market value.

What was the value of the ICE vs. the value of the Tesla, in your insurance comparison? I have read about higher insurance in more than one article, so it would be good to hear about your experience as an affected consumer.

I don’t see how household incomes affect real world vehicle prices, so I still don’t understand. And I don’t believe those stats either, there is no way to accurately compile those lists.

The vehicle we had was a sierra denali truck, which was about the same as the 2016 Camaro SS, which is about the same as the Tesla. Also the insurance for a Bolt wasn’t anymore than something like the cx-30 we were originally considering, while prices were very close. Again articles are very SLANTED, depending on the sources and their agenda. All I can say is pick your own vehicles to make comparisons and even call insurance for a quote, you may find articles to be less than accurate.

My wife decided recently we needed a three row vehicle, and we weren’t going to get another minivan like we did years ago. So we ended up getting a four year old enclave with 28k miles. Its insurance is actually a tad higher than the M3P, and despite the epa numbers of 18-24, it gets around 17-19 in mixed traffic and it’s killing me! We looked at a hybrid suv like the Sorento and highlander, but those WERE 10k more, and we still would have gas to buy, despite their getting about 10-12mpg more.

There are papers and articles on the topic of EV affordability to households at different income strata. So income does not affect vehicle prices, it is vehicle prices affect who can buy, and how many. These articles have looked at typical EV prices during 1991, and the incomes of those who purchased. Some of it is simply a calculation of percentage of income that has to go into payments of a certain amount, and one can assume that most households would not/could not pay more than a certain fraction of their income to own one car...if one earns $30000, one cannot afford more than a certain amount for any car because of the fundamental need for rent and utilities and food and clothing and other necessities of life.
I usnderstand your comment about 'slant' of articles perhaps coloring insurance cost, etc., but simple economic affordability calculations (above paragraph) seldom have any slant to them.

Wilt wrote in post #19486564
There are papers and articles on the topic of EV affordability to households at different income strata. So income does not affect vehicle prices, it is vehicle prices affect who can buy, and how many. These articles have looked at typical EV prices during 1991, and the incomes of those who purchased. Some of it is simply a calculation of percentage of income that has to go into payments of a certain amount, and one can assume that most households would not/could not pay more than a certain fraction of their income to own one car...if one earns $30000, one cannot afford more than a certain amount for any car because of the fundamental need for rent and utilities and food and clothing and other necessities of life.

Again, income levels HAVE nothing to do with vehicular equivalent sticker prices of EV vs ICE. You are mixing topics. All what you bring up as to do with total vehicle sales numbers and nothing to do with what you could go out and find today on the lots.

If you make 30k you aren’t even looking at new cars. Even used cars are 10k and up and would stress your finances especially at 7+% rates. This doesn’t come into play when comparing sticker prices. You can find used vehicles for less, but will cost you more in the end.

If anyone wants an objective view of the model 3 or Y from tesla, please PM me. I have several things one might want to know going into a purchase. Before that purchase, the EV6 was our choice.

You are misinterpreting me. I understand income does not affect product price. But income does affect who can afford to pay a price, and whether or not the product is purchased. Far more Canon 6D were sold than Canon 1Dx, as one example.

• For an $80k car loan financed over 4 years at 6%, it is about $1878 per month, so for a person earning $12k per month, that is less than 16% of gross income
  
• For a $50k car loan financed over 4 years at 6%, it is about $1174 per month, so for a person earning $5800 per month (about median income), it is 20% of income
  
• For a $30k car loan financed over 4 years at 6%, it is about $705 per month, so for a person earning $4000 per month, it is 17.6% of gross income
  

Maybe make an EV thread in the lounge? This is pretty far removed from P&S cameras at this point.

Point and shoots are pretty removed at this point too, cell phones displaced them like three years ago, and are indeed dead as the title states.

Yes guess we can just lock the thread if so warranted, unless you think there is more to even discuss on that topic?

Although a bit on topic, my EV has something like eight P&S cameras all around the perimeter. I am quite sure though my cell phone takes better quality photos and video than these cameras, lol.

As a final reply, taking median sale prices of a higher market to compare to a median of a tiny market to come up with some “statistic” isn’t really valid.

You have to compare a specific EV vehicle to its comparable ICE market. This isn’t that hard really is it? Anyways thank you for the discussions.

My wife drive a 30+ mile commute each way to work and back, and her EV is never less than 805, and never has to go to a gas station. She just plugs it in when she gets home and done. If it is cold, and her range drops because of it, it makes no difference. If her performance drops as the battery discharges, it doesn't do so in the about 70 miles she dives daily. And does she really "need" sub 6 second 0-60 in her daily commute? Not sure she would notice if it was happening.

As to some of the other things mentioned, you ice does have varying performance due to ambient temperature, and your range is effected. Again, most people don't notice because very few drive their cars at their performance limits. And yes, all cars "leak" electricity sitting now days, they are always on. But again it normally is at such low levels, its impact is negligible. All the things you mention may be happening, but they generally just don't really matter.

Just like having a f 1.2 lens... may be the fastest out there, but how often does having that option available really matter. I drive an M6, very seldom use the capabilities of its nearly 600 hp. I do how ever take its roof down... a feature I don't need that many ponies. And I think her 0-60 time is faster. Now over 100 I'll blow her away, but how often do I drive 100 pus.... (I'll never tell)

Wilt wrote in post #19486550
I certainly agree; switching over poses many logistical issues that are in need of eventual resolution to make EV for majority a reality.

1. And in CA, there is the reason that there is INSUFFICIENT SUPPLY CAPACITY already-- even without EV charging being widespread yet -- we are asked to not use electrical appliances until after 9pm when heatwaves push A/C usage.
   
2. Those who live in apartments might have one covered spot to park but without individual electric outputs for each spot. And the parking lots and streets that have to accomodate the extra car(s) per apartment have no electrical supply either.
   

Oddly enough, legislation is being considered to ban gas furnaces and water heaters in new construction, even in the face of electricity already being rationed at certain times of the year! These Bozos are not considering the necessity of supporting infrastructure!

Charging station maintenance is an issue already...our daughter drove with family from SF Bay area to UT, and her husband chose their Audi EV to drive there. On multiple occasions, the car's navigation suggested EV changing stations which were INOPERATIVE, causing them to need to search for other charge locations before they could resume the drive. And the total elapsed time for them was hours longer than for those of us who had ICE.

This is just history repeating itself, except for modern electric cars instead of gas-powered cars. Once upon a time, there wasn't infrastructure for automobiles. Few gas stations. No good roads The long Island Motor Parkway was created because there there were no roads for cars at the time.

Electric cars are going to get better, just as ICE have...

• The Chinese are years ahead of us in that they introduced a sodium ion battery in a car. Sodium is more abundant than lithium, and doesn't have to be mined in the same fashion as lithium. These batteries are the state of development of lithium batteries a decade ago and will only improve. The USA has only started looking at this technology.
  
• Lithium sulfur and lithium-silicon batteries have higher energy density than the batteries used in cars now and they can be charged much faster. They also have a longer number of recharge cycles.
  
• The original automobiles were generally sold to wealthy people. William Vanderbilt II built the Motor Parkway because he had no place to drive. He wasn't exactly middle income.
  

For most of our driving needs in our practical car an EV would be fine. But it would have to be a smaller and lesser quality car for what I'd want to spend and so isn't an attractive proposition. We currently have a Volvo XC40 which we really like and for what it is the price was reasonable for its quality and spec. But the EV version is £10K. more and no way am I paying that for something that looks exactly the same apart from a blocked off grille and is more than I think the quality of that car is worth. For that money you can buy something with an ICE which is a level up. Maybe OK for business users but I'm retired and only do low miles nowadays so even hybrids with better fuel consumption don't stack up for me with their increased purchase price.

Whilst an EV has it's attractions, for the majority of buyers I'm guessing, it's more about the new tech., performance and ease of driving rather than anything else, including saving the planet. Running costs don't really figure as due to the cost of electricity in the UK now "fuel" cost differences are getting marginal and early adopters of EV are enjoying a honeymoon period before the government implements a method (whatever that will be) of replacing all the lost tax revenue on petrol and diesel - running costs for an EV will only get higher and erode one of their attractions.

So the figures for EV don't really stack up unless the purchase prices really come down and left to our own devices I don't think the sales for EV would increase dramatically in the next few years - as has been said many can't afford even the smaller and cheaper ones and may not have off street charging.

Off course the ban over here in 2030 will change all that and will be "interesting"! Manufacturers say they will be ready with vehicles but will anyone else be? If folks can afford them will manufacturers be able to supply enough? The number of charging points being installed is already below target. Only cristal ball gazing I know but I'm thinking the car market could be in turmoil around 2030 including the second-hand sector. I wouldn't be surprised if the government have to have a rethink!

Doubt that my next car or maybe two will be fully electric and will probably be hybrids. Unless my sports car goes and is replaced with a small EV as a runabout.

On the subject of compacts (cameras that is) I'm going to buy one second-hand so that at least I should have one still working for sometime.

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RDKirk wrote in post #19486367
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I'm an old man; it's highly unlikely I'll ever be able to afford an EV. I'll take one if someone wants to give me one, however. And although retired, I'm still pulling in above average income...so if I can't afford an EV, most Americans can't afford an EV.
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TeamSpeed wrote in post #19486513
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You build the high end EV vehicles priced very high and sell as many as you can.
Once sales start to drop, then you bring out the more economical versions of those EVs and sell those.
Ditto for base models...

The problem is that many of these manufacturers (all, frankly) haven't hit the point where their higher priced models with all the range and HP have maxed out on sales, so they have no real incentive to build and sell lower priced more basic models.

So until sales of the current models and trim levels drop significantly, the lower base trims will likely never enter the markets. This is the reason for the prices you are finding.

However there are EVs around the $30K mark, which is the price tag for many other ICE vehicles like the RAV, higher end civic, corolla, etc .....
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The economic reality for many Americans is that they can only afford a used care in the $5,000 to $10,000 range. A great many millions of Americans have income that is FAR below the national average, and have no practical hope of ever increasing their income.

Hence, truly affordable electric cars for these folks will not be available until electric cars have been around so long that used models start to fall into the $5,000 to $10,000 level. And of course these folks will NEVER have the money to replace a battery if it goes bad, so they are going to have a max of $10,000 and along with the car they're going to need some assurance that the battery that comes with the car will not go bad within the 5 years or so after purchase.

I mean, I still buy only manual transmission cars because if I bought a car with an automatic transmission, and it went bad and needed to be replaced, there is no way I would ever be able to afford to have the transmission job done, so I would literally be stuck, completely immobile, for years and years until I somehow fell into an extra $3,000. . So of course a battery in an electric car coming to its end of life would be an enormous financial disaster for many millions of American people - something they simply could not put themselves in a position to have happen.

I think that people with stable career or stable income stream often forget that so many millions of us here in America have so much less than the average person. . But we still want and need things like super reliable vehicles so we can be mobile and independent and get around just as much as the more well off people do.


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The big difference is though CJ that obviously motoring wasn't being enjoyed by the masses then.

It is now established and changes are being forced on us by climate change and governments and the answers aren't all there for the enforced rather than evolutionary changes.