Say what you see.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19426253
I have always had a real problem with tattletales. . Was brought up with the rule that we were never to tattle on others, no matter what they were doing or how wrong it was.

I wasn't brought up that way. I don't recall my parents saying anything about it. It was only kids who held that value. What supports it, anyway? Now free to use adult judgment, I don't know a reason, other than avoiding retaliation, to protect a wrongdoer instead of protecting the wrongdoer's actual or potential victims. In the UK's program, assuming the photographers aren't identified to the defendants, retaliation isn't an issue.

But we're straying from the original topic. This often happens when moral issues come up. Then mods delete posts and sometimes lock threads.

Capn Jack wrote in post #19426260
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But you wouldn't at least get a tag number and call the police in this situation?
https://www.theguardia​n.com …employee-stops-carjacking
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I honestly don't know what I would do in that situation. . My instinct / reaction would probably be to intervene myself, regardless of the physical danger to myself. . But I don't know for sure what I'd do.

When someone carjacked me back in the late 1990s, I didn't report the incident to authorities afterward. . They got what they wanted (a free ride and use of my truck for an hour or so) and I got what I wanted - my truck back. . So I look back on that and think "it's all good", even if they were likely to repeat the offense against someone else.

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I sure wish someone would have tattled on the drunk driver who killed my Nephew.
: /

Wrong place to post this, I'm afraid. Virtually all the people here, appear to be of the opinion that using a phone whilst driving, is a God-given right. If this had been the cause of his death, it would have simply been regarded as a 'que será, será' moment. Can't imagine being killed by a drunk driver, would make any difference to them.

Basher wrote in post #19426423
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Wrong place to post this, I'm afraid. Virtually all the people here, appear to be of the opinion that using a phone whilst driving, is a God-given right.
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I think you have misunderstood the mindset of the folks here.

I do not at all think that using a phone while driving is a right. . I don't even think it is acceptable. . It is wrong to use a phone while driving.

But I do think that we should not report people for doing wrong. . Just because someone does something wrong or illegal or against the rules does not mean that they should get caught for it, or held accountable for it, or reported for it.


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Tom Reichner wrote in post #19426475
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I think you have misunderstood the mindset of the folks here.

I do not at all think that using a phone while driving is a right. . I don't even think it is acceptable. . It is wrong to use a phone while driving.

But I do think that we should not report people for doing wrong. . Just because someone does something wrong or illegal or against the rules does not mean that they should get caught for it, or held accountable for it, or reported for it.

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Based on your comment below, I really don't think you mean what you said above. There's probably a "wrongness" level above which you would call or intervene based on your statement below. I'm not going to ask where the inflection point lies on your value scale.

Do you really think people shouldn't be held accountable for wrong-doing? For murder? Embezzlement? Changing scales so they report a heavier mass than that placed on them? If so, that contradicts your statement reposted below.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19426269
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I honestly don't know what I would do in that situation. . My instinct / reaction would probably be to intervene myself, regardless of the physical danger to myself. . But I don't know for sure what I'd do.

When someone carjacked me back in the late 1990s, I didn't report the incident to authorities afterward. . They got what they wanted (a free ride and use of my truck for an hour or so) and I got what I wanted - my truck back. . So I look back on that and think "it's all good", even if they were likely to repeat the offense against someone else.

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Capn Jack wrote in post #19426476
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Do you really think people shouldn't be held accountable for wrong-doing? For murder? Embezzlement? Changing scales so they report a heavier mass than that placed on them? If so, that contradicts your statement reposted below.
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In many, or most, situations, I prefer that people get away with whatever they did that is wrong. . I mean, when I watch movies, I almost always want the "bad guys" to get away, and not be caught or punished or called to account for the illegal things they have done.

In real life, I never reported those thugs whop carjacked me. . And then in 2019 when my storage unit was broken into and thousands of dollars worth of things were stolen, including many of great sentimental value, I did not press charges or testify when I was asked to by the prosecutor. . It was broken into again this past spring, and once again I declined to press charges or testify.

If I saw a crime in progress, it is likely that I would intervene myself, because there is a pretty high level of aggressiveness and assertiveness within me. . I guess it's the "fight" part of what some people call the "fight or flight" response. . I mean, if I had happened to go to my storage unit when the thieves were there, I no doubt would have picked up something hard and heavy and started swinging it at them in a rage-filled fury, or tried to drive my car right into them and smash them with the front bumper, trying my best to wound or maim them for life. . But I wouldn't call 911 to report a crime in progress.

But I really can't imagine myself reporting any wrongdoing to the authorities. . I've seen a lot of illegal stuff being done over the years - I mean a hell of a lot of stuff. . And never once have I reported any of it to authorities. . If I can't handle it on my own, then I just let it go.

I have reported several things to the authorities over the years, but they are safety issues, not crime issues. . Like when I see drunks staggering down the highway all wobbly, at night when it's hard to see them in their dark clothes, I usually call 911 to let the sheriff's deputies know that there's someone out on the road who is likely to get hit by a car. . But if I saw that same person doing something wrong or illegal I would never call to report them for it. . I don't want anyone getting in trouble, just don't want them getting hit by a car.


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Tom Reichner wrote in post #19426480
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In many, or most, situations, I prefer that people get away with whatever they did that is wrong. . I mean, when I watch movies, I almost always want the "bad guys" to get away, and not be caught or punished or called to account for the illegal things they have done.

In real life, I never reported those thugs whop carjacked me. . And then in 2019 when my storage unit was broken into and thousands of dollars worth of things were stolen, including many of great sentimental value, I did not press charges or testify when I was asked to by the prosecutor. . It was broken into again this past spring, and once again I declined to press charges or testify.

If I saw a crime in progress, it is likely that I would intervene myself, because there is a pretty high level of aggressiveness and assertiveness within me. . I guess it's the "fight" part of what some people call the "fight or flight" response. . I mean, if I had happened to go to my storage unit when the thieves were there, I no doubt would have picked up something hard and heavy and started swinging it at them in a rage-filled fury, or tried to drive my car right into them and smash them with the front bumper, trying my best to wound or maim them for life. . But I wouldn't call 911 to report a crime in progress.

But I really can't imagine myself reporting any wrongdoing to the authorities. . I've seen a lot of illegal stuff being done over the years - I mean a hell of a lot of stuff. . And never once have I reported any of it to authorities. . If I can't handle it on my own, then I just let it go.

I have reported several things to the authorities over the years, but they are safety issues, not crime issues. . Like when I see drunks staggering down the highway all wobbly, at night when it's hard to see them in their dark clothes, I usually call 911 to let the sheriff's deputies know that there's someone out on the road who is likely to get hit by a car. . But if I saw that same person doing something wrong or illegal I would never call to report them for it. . I don't want anyone getting in trouble, just don't want them getting hit by a car.

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Acknowledged.

Basher wrote in post #19426423
Wrong place to post this, I'm afraid. Virtually all the people here, appear to be of the opinion that using a phone whilst driving, is a God-given right. If this had been the cause of his death, it would have simply been regarded as a 'que será, será' moment. Can't imagine being killed by a drunk driver, would make any difference to them.

I don't interpret the posts that way. No one here has said drivers have a right to use a phone. The issue is whether your photos show clearly enough that the (white) driver was using one and that the car was moving. Low resolution and lighting conditions make it hard to say what the rectangular thing was. Presumably you saw it because your vision is better than your dashcam's vision, but there's a great distance between observing something and having enough evidence for a court.

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19426475
I do not at all think that using a phone while driving is a right. . I don't even think it is acceptable. . It is wrong to use a phone while driving.

But I do think that we should not report people for doing wrong. . Just because someone does something wrong or illegal or against the rules does not mean that they should get caught for it, or held accountable for it, or reported for it.

The more relevant question is what should happen when someone does something dangerous.

The people here, clearly did not intend to kill anyone, but by doing what they did, that is exactly what happened. Based on your code, are you saying that they should never even have been prosecuted, let alone jailed. That a more fitting punishment, would have been to allow them to be sought out by the relatives of the victims, thus giving them the opportunity to 'wound or maim' them? Is that what you are suggesting?

Basher wrote in post #19426758
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The people here, clearly did not intend to kill anyone, but by doing what they did, that is exactly what happened. Based on your code, are you saying that they should never even have been prosecuted, let alone jailed. That a more fitting punishment, would have been to allow them to be sought out by the relatives of the victims, thus giving them the opportunity to 'wound or maim' them? Is that what you are suggesting?
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I never said that. . I said that in many, or most, situations, I prefer that people get away with whatever they did that was wrong. . That does not cover all situations. . It leaves room for exceptions. . I intentionally worded it that way so that it would not be an absolute statement that can be applied to everything.

You are taking what I said, and then extrapolating on it, thinking that if I say one thing, then I also mean other similar, related things. . But I do NOT mean those other related things. . I mean only what I actually said.

I absolutely think the person should be prosecuted and jailed. . They should be dealt with decisively and severely by the court. . They should probably be jailed for quite some time, and prohibited from driving for the rest of their life.

If the authorities can catch this person and get all the evidence they need for a conviction without assistance from a 3rd party individual, then they should throw the book at them! . But I don't think that any 3rd party should intervene and try to "help" and do part of the prosecution's job for them.

Just because I do not think that people should report other people's crimes DOES NOT mean that I think that the person should go unprosecuted.

Now if it was a movie, and the character was relatable or good looking, then I would root for them to get away with it

It would behoove you to take people precisely at their word, and not add any additional or hypothetical meaning to what they have actually said, nor extend what they have said to mean anything further or slightly different.

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Tom Reichner wrote in post #19426828
If the authorities can catch this person and get all the evidence they need for a conviction without assistance from a 3rd party individual, then they should throw the book at them! . But I don't think that any 3rd party should intervene and try to "help" and do part of the prosecution's job for them.

Just because I do not think that people should report other people's crimes DOES NOT mean that I think that the person should go unprosecuted.

Tom, your position is hard to understand because it leaves entirely to chance whether a person who, you acknowledge, should be prosecuted will ever come to the attention of a prosecutor. Worse, it raises the likelihood that this person will come to a prosecutor's attention by making something awful happen, something that can't be undone. It isn't surprising if Basher or others try to fill in the gaps by interpreting what you say as a sign of an underlying opinion that you don't have. People want to construct a consistent story.

We all know that the police can't be everywhere. So far, the only reason you've given for not reporting a driver who's a hazard on the road is that you don't think a third party should do it, that you were raised not to tattle. At this stage, I want to ask why you hold that opinion and how well you think the idea of a kid tattling on a little classmate transfers to an adult reporting a dangerous driver.

My opinion is that the two situations are quite different. Giving evidence that someone is likely to cause an accident isn't much like telling the teacher that you saw Johnny chewing gum.

If anyone would like to receive a slow-motion video clip of the incident, please provide me with an email address. You will then be able to see for yourself, that everything I said that happened, happened. No special equipment will be required, in order to view it. A simple magnifying glass, should suffice. Please be aware that the phone in the clip, is FIXED to the dashboard, so only his hand, will have any movement.

OhLook wrote in post #19426903
Tom, your position is hard to understand because it leaves entirely to chance whether a person who, you acknowledge, should be prosecuted will ever come to the attention of a prosecutor. Worse, it raises the likelihood that this person will come to a prosecutor's attention by making something awful happen, something that can't be undone. It isn't surprising if Basher or others try to fill in the gaps by interpreting what you say as a sign of an underlying opinion that you don't have. People want to construct a consistent story.

We all know that the police can't be everywhere. So far, the only reason you've given for not reporting a driver who's a hazard on the road is that you don't think a third party should do it, that you were raised not to tattle. At this stage, I want to ask why you hold that opinion and how well you think the idea of a kid tattling on a little classmate transfers to an adult reporting a dangerous driver.

My opinion is that the two situations are quite different. Giving evidence that someone is likely to cause an accident isn't much like telling the teacher that you saw Johnny chewing gum.

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Oh Look,

You ask some very good questions and make some good points. . I just don't think that I have the ability to focus and concentrate enough right now to conduct the level of introspection that would be necessary to give you complete, properly articulated answers. . Plus, if I say how I really feel about all of this, there are bound to be some things in my mindset that appear to be inconsistencies, and I really don't care to have any such apparent inconsistencies called out and be asked to defend them.

I can say that the whole "don't tattletale" value system that I was raised with involves far more than kids snitching on each other. . Is just as much of a serious adult thing than it is a kid thing. . I guess what lies behind it, for some of us, is the idea that if you can't handle a wrongdoer on your own, then you have no right to run to anyone else to do it for you. . Be man enough (a.k.a. "tough enough") to handle problems yourself, and not lean on society to do it for you. . That is the mindset behind the way I was raised. . It didn't really have to do with little kid stuff in school - it was and is a value system held by adults, and applied to serious things.

I am not going to defend that value system and say that I agree entirely with it being applied to every possible situation. . Nor am I going to say that I disagree with it, either. . At this point I'm going to intentionally remain a bit nebulous on the precise nature of my feelings on this topic and every situation that it can be applied to, so that I do not have to answer tough questions that require more hard thinking than I feel like doing at this time.


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Absolutely, no takers. Hmm, it would appear that proving it was the police who lied, rather than me, still means absolutely nothing, if the 'telltale code' is broken.

Bye-bye.