R1 rumored to be 100 MP's

Capn Jack wrote in post #19428890
What does any of this have to do with whether Canon has the technology now to put a 100 MP sensor into a hypothetical R1?

Because I and everyone else is talking about the R1.

You cited a 120MP 1.3x crop image sensor that was showcased years prior to 2015 and 2021.

Odds are it lacks BSI.

I do not understand why you were pushing that dozen year old sensor on a 2023 body.

dolina wrote in post #19428903
Because I and everyone else is talking about the R1.

You cited a 120MP 1.3x crop image sensor that was showcased years prior to 2015 and 2021.

Odds are it lacks BSI.

I do not understand why you were pushing that dozen year old sensor on a 2023 body.

So you don't think Canon has improved the technology? You don't think Canon can make a full-frame 100 MP (or more) sensor now? And you think Canon can't put it into an R1?

You haven't answered the question: What technical reason prevents Canon from making an 100 MP sensor and putting it into an R1?

Capn Jack wrote in post #19428928
So you don't think Canon has improved the technology? You don't think Canon can make a full-frame 100 MP (or more) sensor now? And you think Canon can't put it into an R1?

You haven't answered the question: What technical reason prevents Canon from making an 100 MP sensor and putting it into an R1?

You pointed to outdated parts

You tell us. You're in the industry.

dolina wrote in post #19428944
You pointed to outdated parts

You tell us. You're in the industry.

Since you asked, there is no technical reason that Canon can't place a 100 MP sensor on the R1.

Dolina- Nothing personal....But canon caught Sony sensor technology with the 1Dx2 and 5D4 sensors and that was improved on slightly with the 1Dx3 sensor.....Since these releases....There is no advantage that Sony has on canon for sensor technology....IN FACT.....Canon has likely exceeded anything in the Sony line up with the R6 release.....It has better usable ISO @ 51000 then any other camera on the markets. So Im not sure what you are basing your opinions on. The fact of the matter is all of the current cameras are great at 12800 and most produce usable images at 25000 ISO.......Including Sony.....Sensor technology is now a non selling point...its all equal by each MFG.....so now the MFG's only put auto Eye focus in mirrorless bodies and thats the new selling point for cameras.....If you want current technologies you are forced to buy mirrorless....sensor technology has nothing to do anymore with camera superiority

Mike, I provided a point in a previous post. Pls back page to see what I am talking about.

umphotography wrote in post #19428978
Dolina- Nothing personal....But canon caught Sony sensor technology with the 1Dx2 and 5D4 sensors

That started with the 80D, actually; the first Canon to actually benefit from 14 bits at base ISO.

The Nikon D5 is a little cleaner, actually, at ISO 51K. Maybe the Sony A7s series, too.

If you expose the R6 for ISO 3.28M, however, like the D5's top ISO, I would expect the R6 to be a little better, since it doesn't have that strong horizontal banding noise that the D5 has with its extended ISOs. It's very clean (by existing standards) up to 102K, which has the camera's highest analog gain, but once you go much above that, the banding starts to get stronger in the image.

John Sheehy wrote in post #19429105
That started with the 80D, actually; the first Canon to actually benefit from 14 bits at base ISO.

The Nikon D5 is a little cleaner, actually, at ISO 51K. Maybe the Sony A7s series, too.

If you expose the R6 for ISO 3.28M, however, like the D5's top ISO, I would expect the R6 to be a little better, since it doesn't have that strong horizontal banding noise that the D5 has with its extended ISOs. It's very clean (by existing standards) up to 102K, which has the camera's highest analog gain, but once you go much above that, the banding starts to get stronger in the image.

This could be interesting....


POST 19389728

dolina wrote in post #19428855
John,

The limits of an R1 with 100 megapixel would be largely be data throughput of CF express.

Does it have the bandwidth to do

- 100 megapixels
- >30 fps e. Shutter
- >12 fps mech shutter
- for RAW
- for RAW + JPEG

What about power consumption? Can it do better than 2021 R3 or approaching 2020 1D X Mark III?

Those two bodies are 24 megapixel & 20 megapixel respectively.

The rumor posits at 100 megapixel image sensor.

I have zero doubts that EOS 5Ds R replacement will do 100 megapixels as its e shutter would be <30fps & mech shutter <12fps

Sony A1 can do

- 50.1 megapixels
- 30fps e. shutter
- 10fps mech shutter
- for RAW
- for RAW + JPEG

Nikon Z9 can do

- 45.7 megapixels
- 30fps e. shutter
- for RAW

That's why I am more conservative with the R1 being at most 60+ megapixels.

I think CR's getting their rumors mixed up or intentionally causing disharmony to get more clicks from a user base that is quickly diminishing. My bet is that CR's getting half the clicks a decade ago

So you really don't understand how cameras work.
Many Sony A1 owners don't bother buying CFE cards, they just stick with UHS-II SD cards with maximum write speeds of a little, or a lot less than 300MB/s write speeds.
RAW files, at ISO 100 are about 64MB for lossless compressed RAW or 102MB for uncompressed.
30fps x 102MB = 3060MB/s
30fps x 64MB = 1920MB/s

The A1 works fine with cards that have write speeds of less than 10% of the data rate of the camera.
Even using a CFExpress with maximum write speed of 700MB/s, the camera generates data at between 2.5 times to over 4 times the write speed of the card.

My Sony A9 at 20fps compressed RAW results in 480MB/s and it only uses SD cards. I started with a 95MB/s UHS-I SD, and that's read speed, not write.

Canon R3: R3 30 fps 24mp = 30 x 30MB = 900MB/s with CFE with current best card write speed of 1400MB/s.

So a theoretical Canon 100mp R1, outputting RAW at 30 fps would be 4.166 x the data of an R3, 3750MB/s, which is only 2.7 times the write speed of the current best CFE @ 1400MB/s. And the 1400MB/s is the guaranteed write speed, not the maximum write speed.

The A1 can do 4.37 times the maximum CFE write speed.

So using the A1 example, 4.37 x the 1400 max speed of the R3's CFE, that's 6118MB/s, or 1.63 times the 100mp data. Put it another way, 163 megapixels at 30 fps.

163 megapixels possible with current cards and current interface technology.

It's called a buffer!

To make things really easy to understand, the A1, using CFE Type-A cards (which are half the speed of the Canon R3's CFE Type-B cards) can do 30fps at 50 megapixels.

Now. Today. It's been doing it since January 2021.

So double card write speed means you can double megapixels. Double 30fps 50mp = 30fps 100mp.

Choderboy wrote in post #19429119
To make things really easy to understand, the A1, using CFE Type-A cards (which are half the speed of the Canon R3's CFE Type-B cards) can do 30fps at 50 megapixels.

Now. Today. It's been doing it since January 2021.

So double card write speed means you can double megapixels. Double 30fps 50mp = 30fps 100mp.

Yes- but you are talking write speeds- What does that have to to with sensor performance ? Sensor performance boils down to ISO and DR and the amount of pixels packed into that sensor....We all remember the 40D and 50D situation and how everyone thought the 50D was a much noisier camera sensor.....and that perceived noise was due to the higher pixel density.....I think we saw this with the 7D2 as well

My thoughts on this rumored R1 are that a pixel heavy 100 MP sensor will be a nightmare for photographers for many reasons

1- Computers needed to handle these large files...current computers are going to struggle except maybe the new super macs

2- Control of noise. 100MP sensors is a lot of pixels. even with this new technology its going to be difficult to control and far more work in post to get presentable imagery

3- Cards. We will need VERY EXPENSIVE cards to handle these sensors

4- Speed- the R7 is 15 with a 30mp sensor- a 100 mp sensor ? are we talking 7-8 FPS.....mind you this is never a concern for me but it is for many

I think a lot of questions and problems will happen with the massive sensors- And from my perspective...They are not needed for 95% of the work photographers do

umphotography wrote in post #19429126
Yes- but you are talking write speeds- What does that have to to with sensor performance ? Sensor performance boils down to ISO and DR and the amount of pixels packed into that sensor....We all remember the 40D and 50D situation and how everyone thought the 50D was a much noisier camera sensor.....and that perceived noise was due to the higher pixel density.....I think we saw this with the 7D2 as well

My thoughts on this rumored R1 are that a pixel heavy 100 MP sensor will be a nightmare for photographers for many reasons

1- Computers needed to handle these large files...current computers are going to struggle except maybe the new super macs

2- Control of noise. 100MP sensors is a lot of pixels. even with this new technology its going to be difficult to control and far more work in post to get presentable imagery

3- Cards. We will need VERY EXPENSIVE cards to handle these sensors

4- Speed- the R7 is 15 with a 30mp sensor- a 100 mp sensor ? are we talking 7-8 FPS.....mind you this is never a concern for me but it is for many

I think a lot of questions and problems will happen with the massive sensors- And from my perspective...They are not needed for 95% of the work photographers do

I quoted Dolina in my post. Here it is again:
POST 19428855

an R1 with 100 megapixel would be largely be data throughput of CF express.

Does it have the bandwidth to do

- 100 megapixels
- >30 fps e. Shutter
- >12 fps mech shutter
- for RAW
- for RAW + JPEG

I'm not talking noise, PC requirements.

You say : Cards. We will need VERY EXPENSIVE cards to handle these sensors

Please read my post again. The whole point is that the cards we have now, have had for years, can easily cope with 30fps and 100mp.

I also pointed out my Sony A9 was used initially with my ancient, slow SD card at 20fps.
WE DO NOT NEED VERY EXPENSIVE CARDS.

Again, I 'll just requote myself:

To make things really easy to understand, the A1, using CFE Type-A cards (which are half the speed of the Canon R3's CFE Type-B cards) can do 30fps at 50 megapixels.

I just don't see how I can make it any simpler:

To make things really easy to understand, the A1, using CFE Type-A cards (which are half the speed of the Canon R3's CFE Type-B cards) can do 30fps at 50 megapixels.


What is confusing about that? I could ask Pekka to create a flashing font?

Is $33 expensive?

Discontinued card is 170 MB/s read. The $33 is 200 MB/s read.
I used the 95 MB/s read card in Sony A9, 24 megapixels 20 fps.
Write speed the same for all.
These cards can be used in R3 and Sony A1.
Maximum frames per second does not slow down.