What will be the standard for judging used mirrorless cameras?

Beginning with the first dSLRs, shutter actuation counts have been the standard with which to determine the relative "age" of any particular camera body.

As we transition to mirrorless cameras, I wonder how this thinking will change (if at all). An R5 with 150k mechanical shutter actuations is not the same as an R5 with 150k electronic shutter actuations. Furthermore, comparing shutter actuations (regardless of what mode) of mirrorless cameras to dSLR cameras is not a direct/even comparison in my opinion.

Just some random thinking on my part. Perhaps it doesn't really matter. Perhaps it only affects those selling and buying used equipment (what other factors become important?). Perhaps the number of shutter actuations will become a "so what?" going forward. Any thoughts?

Selling a mirrorless camera at the moment, and came up against the same conundrum because despite having used it for more than a year, the shutter count was only ~1600. Not even sure if that's accurate, because if the shutter count sites go off of EXIF data in a file, then in my case it's obviously not counting the electronic shutter actuations. Not sure anymore what's a good representation of usage, as I don't think ES taxes or ages the sensor the same as a dedicated mechanical shutter would during use. Thinking that there has to be someway to accurately track ES/MS shutter actuations, and then again, does it really matter if it doesn't impact life expectancy?

Heck, my Z9 doesn't even have a MS

Best guess is it will be based on physical condition age and whether there is still support for the model and how it compares feature wise to newer models. I am Basing this on the Digital back market place, where you also have the added standard of compatibility.

For example an old Creo or Kodak back goes for pennies on the dollar because they are old, will not pair with newer cameras, need harder to find adapters for use with large format, are not supported for repairs or updates and not supported in newer software (Capture One Photosohp LR etc.).

Where as something like a Leaf Aptus or Phase one P back—which are no longer supported by Phase One—still have a reasonable market value because they can be paired with older mechanical and digital Hasselblads, Mamiyas and Contaxes which are not compatible with the newest digital backs.

Then there are the newer models which are currently judged like phones or computers based on physical condition features and version. Phase One for example has the IQ 1-3 and the newer IQ4 each with a variety of features depending on the age and model. CCD or CMOS chip, with or without Wifi, support for running of the cameras battery etc.

MatthewK wrote in post #19453641
Selling a mirrorless camera at the moment, and came up against the same conundrum because despite having used it for more than a year, the shutter count was only ~1600. Not even sure if that's accurate, because if the shutter count sites go off of EXIF data in a file, then in my case it's obviously not counting the electronic shutter actuations. Not sure anymore what's a good representation of usage, as I don't think ES taxes or ages the sensor the same as a dedicated mechanical shutter would during use. Thinking that there has to be someway to accurately track ES/MS shutter actuations, and then again, does it really matter if it doesn't impact life expectancy?

Heck, my Z9 doesn't even have a MS

Yes, exactly.

*Scruffy* wrote in post #19453664
Best guess is it will be based on physical condition age and whether there is still support for the model and how it compares feature wise to newer models. I am Basing this on the Digital back market place, where you also have the added standard of compatibility.

For example an old Creo or Kodak back goes for pennies on the dollar because they are old, will not pair with newer cameras, need harder to find adapters for use with large format, are not supported for repairs or updates and not supported in newer software (Capture One Photosohp LR etc.).

Where as something like a Leaf Aptus or Phase one P back—which are no longer supported by Phase One—still have a reasonable market value because they can be paired with older mechanical and digital Hasselblads, Mamiyas and Contaxes which are not compatible with the newest digital backs.

Then there are the newer models which are currently judged like phones or computers based on physical condition features and version. Phase One for example has the IQ 1-3 and the newer IQ4 each with a variety of features depending on the age and model. CCD or CMOS chip, with or without Wifi, support for running of the cameras battery etc.

My thoughts as well. So perhaps best to keep a camera cosmetically pristine but go ahead and shoot the heck out of it!

It just occurred to me that maybe this is analogous to comparing electric vs gas cars.

How does one sell/buy a Tesla with 150k miles verses an internal combustion vehicle with 150k miles? Mileage alone is not a fair comparison.

View_Finder wrote in post #19453674
My thoughts as well. So perhaps best to keep a camera cosmetically pristine but go ahead and shoot the heck out of it!

Damn, A little late now. I have one mirrorless camera and it has rubber hanging off it, paint rubbed off in a modern imitation of brassing, dings and scratches. I'd rather a different camera but I keep it is because for the most part it works and I doubt anyone would pay me for it—or not its ugly worth. The lenses though, they're immaculate.

In this consideration, we need to keep in mind that mechanical wear and tear is not entirely confined to the mirror box and mechanical shutter...switches develop faulty actuations (dead, intermittent or noisy) just by being pressed/rotated, or sometimes even from insufficient frequency of actuation!

And electronics can stop functioning, too...

• the reason why some folks have recently inquired about why their flash units have not been operating (not an issue with a switch, nor with electrical contact in the hot foot)
  
• I have a Canon 5D (classic) that simply stopped functioning in the middle of a shoot ...after I put it down on the table to do something (without switching it off) and picked it up again, it would not wake up for continued use! Circuit malfunction in a camera with less than 60K actuations.
  

Not sure how important shutter count is for bodies, because it is usually real low. Does it matter if it is 15,000 or 40,000? Or 85,000? Everybody wants to know the shutter count but once it is known, probably dismiss it.

What about lenses? Lenses must wear out from use. My 100-400mm II has taken many thousands of photos but has no actuation count. I thought about bragging to a buyer that it had done trusty service in Singapore, Ecuador, , Belize, Holland and Florida, besides home territory, but it is probably not helpful to say that.

I think buyers will go by physical condition and hunches. Nobody knows when something will malfunction or what part it will be.

I'm with you on that, outside of obvious physical signs like paint chipping/scrapes/dents on lenses or sticky buttons/LCD scratches/UI bugs on cameras, you're relying on honest use reporting by the seller, who really is under no obligation to disclose unless it's egregiously obvious. As the buyer, it's up to your own sniff test to determine if you want to take a chance on that gear; if the seller gives open, detailed usage and discloses the wear and tear, that would be worth more to me than a seller that has has a basic listing and shares no usage/defects. Personally, I am of the former group when I list items, I feel as though the buyer deserves to know how I used the gear, how long I've owned it, if I'm the original owner or bought it used, etc. Also like to offer a small return window if something were to crop up, though you're taking a chance on the buyer accidentally messing up the gear, and coming back saying "it arrived like that", which is why I prefer dealing w/ someone that has a good feedback score or that I've dealt with in the past.

All that to say: you can go by visual condition and owner's use case, but outside that there's not much more you can do.

View_Finder wrote in post #19453675
It just occurred to me that maybe this is analogous to comparing electric vs gas cars.

How does one sell/buy a Tesla with 150k miles verses an internal combustion vehicle with 150k miles? Mileage alone is not a fair comparison.

Even in gas cars, miles is not a really good measure as highway miles are a lot different than city miles and back road miles is a lot different than smooth pavement. It's a measure but it needs context as well. I would think with a EV, battery age/charge cycles could be a good measure as replacing the battery pack is still rather expensive.

Archibald wrote in post #19453718
Not sure how important shutter count is for bodies, because it is usually real low. Does it matter if it is 15,000 or 40,000? Or 85,000? Everybody wants to know the shutter count but once it is known, probably dismiss it.

What about lenses? Lenses must wear out from use. My 100-400mm II has taken many thousands of photos but has no actuation count. I thought about bragging to a buyer that it had done trusty service in Singapore, Ecuador, , Belize, Holland and Florida, besides home territory, but it is probably not helpful to say that.

I think buyers will go by physical condition and hunches. Nobody knows when something will malfunction or what part it will be.

I think shutter count was a convenient measure because if is an indicator of physical wear and tear and a low shutter count camera most likely has less physical damage than a high shutter count camera and is usually priced less.

With the way Canon is updating these mirrorless bodies My thought go more along these lines...throw away cameras....except you are tossing away 2-3K every time you update

Wilt wrote in post #19453712
...switches develop faulty actuations (dead, intermittent or noisy) just by being pressed/rotated, or sometimes even from insufficient frequency of actuation!
And electronics can stop functioning, too...
...my 7DII has only less than 50k actuations, yet it has very flakey main rotaty switch intermittent contact, that seems to be progressively getting worse over time and is the greatest frustration to continued use of that camera...definitely not a case of overuse...

Yup agreed. My mirrorless nolonger auto-switches between EVF & back screen view, and in the cold the back screen shuts off intermittently.

It's all going to come down to physical looks and functionality, like all electronics sold on ebay, so hit or miss. To a point it's been heading that way since the advent of digital sensors, if not earlier with inclusion of electronics in cameras and overall automation.

Archibald wrote in post #19453718
Not sure how important shutter count is for bodies, because it is usually real low. Does it matter if it is 15,000 or 40,000? Or 85,000? Everybody wants to know the shutter count but once it is known, probably dismiss it.

What about lenses? Lenses must wear out from use. My 100-400mm II has taken many thousands of photos but has no actuation count. I thought about bragging to a buyer that it had done trusty service in Singapore, Ecuador, , Belize, Holland and Florida, besides home territory, but it is probably not helpful to say that.

I think buyers will go by physical condition and hunches. Nobody knows when something will malfunction or what part it will be.

It depends on the camera. For say a medium format body with an electronic release and shutter replacement cost running into the thousands if the model can even be repaired shutter count would factor into a decision. I had a shutter fail well before the estimated 250K it was rated for but as it was out of warranty I ended up selling it for parts.

As to lenses unless you have an electronic leaf shutter probably not, and the way we buy lenses now will probably become how we buy cameras, is the sensor scratched, do the buttons move easily does the lens lock work is there grit etc.