What will be the standard for judging used mirrorless cameras?

The R3 has the same kind of shutter count information in the menu system as the 1DX-series. But the R3 counts the mechanical shuter movements only.

For used electric cars, the battery condition is an important factor, as it's at least as expensive as a combustion motor to replace.

apersson850 wrote in post #19453919
The R3 has the same kind of shutter count information in the menu system as the 1DX-series. But the R3 counts the mechanical shuter movements only.

For used electric cars, the battery condition is an important factor, as it's at least as expensive as a combustion motor to replace.

I have a very long time friend who drove a Prius around for 14 years and 180,000 miles, and it still had the original battery!
Dunno about switches getting flakey, or about how rattling the ride had become. Prius is analogous to Canon mirrorless...two kinds of engines (vs. two kinds of shutters), no major repairs in the lifetime of ownership.

The Prius is not an all electric car.

Shutter actuations mattered because there were so many mechanical components, and the odds were higher you would need a repair on something, the higher that number.

Electronic shutter means there are virtually no mechanical wear.

So now shutter actuations that are high means that you might still need repairs on the shutter assembly, but no mirror box or servos.

Even with dslrs, you could be looking at a camera with low actuations, but had hundreds of hours in live view or video recording. No different than with mirrorless now really….

What would really be needed on dslrs and mirrorless alike would be some sort of hours in use number of the sensor, if you think that means something to resale.

I didn't realize that ES actuations weren't being recorded (at least on some bodies). Makes sense since ES is essentially the same as video mode.

Good point about heavy video use. Doesn't video produce significant heat? I don't shoot any video so I am not familiar with that issue. If so, I would think repeated thermal expansion might cause early failure. But then again, people who live in extremely hot environments probably expose their equipment to similar stresses on a daily basis.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19454240
Shutter actuations mattered because there were so many mechanical components, and the odds were higher you would need a repair on something, the higher that number.

Electronic shutter means there are virtually no mechanical wear.

So now shutter actuations that are high means that you might still need repairs on the shutter assembly, but no mirror box or servos.

Even with dslrs, you could be looking at a camera with low actuations, but had hundreds of hours in live view or video recording. No different than with mirrorless now really….

What would really be needed on dslrs and mirrorless alike would be some sort of hours in use number of the sensor, if you think that means something to resale.

Yes I agree with you on all of this. I always liked shutter counts for DSLR's. If I saw someone selling a body with low actuations first thing I would do is ask and investigate if the person used the body for video work. I know countless videographers that had extremely low actuations at sale time, BUT, their 3 yr old camera was on for 8-12 hours at every gig running non stop....that needs to be factored and currently there is no way to do that.....Its like buying a used TV now...something I would not do....or a used computer...how many of us would buy these used electronics ?? Especially with the bar of entry for a camera like the R7 or 6D2...why take a chance on a 1/3 off retail price on 2 yr old electronics ?? A shutter count was a great standard...not so much now with mirrorless and especially for the guys that shoot video all day....I wouldnt buy one from a videographer.....espec​ially as hot as these newer cameras get....cant measure what heat does to electronics

apersson850 wrote in post #19454217
The Prius is not an all electric car.

Right...sometimes the Prius uses its electric motor, sometimes it uses its gas engine...it depends upon the usage profile and how often the user exceeds the battery capacity so the car must start its gas powered engine. So the gas engine does not have its wear necessarily represented by the mileage gauge on the dash.

Similarly, the mirrorless camera sometimes uses its electronic shutter, and sometimes it uses its mechanical shutter (maybe because the user shoots with electronic flash and does not own a Nikon Z9; of maybe they are trying to avoid the distortions caused by rolling shutter). So the mechanical shutter wear is not necessarily represented by the shutter actuation count see with software that reports such figures.

umphotography wrote in post #19454283
Yes I agree with you on all of this. I always liked shutter counts for DSLR's. If I saw someone selling a body with low actuations first thing I would do is ask and investigate if the person used the body for video work. I know countless videographers that had extremely low actuations at sale time, BUT, their 3 yr old camera was on for 8-12 hours at every gig running non stop....that needs to be factored and currently there is no way to do that.....Its like buying a used TV now...something I would not do....or a used computer...how many of us would buy these used electronics ?? Especially with the bar of entry for a camera like the R7 or 6D2...why take a chance on a 1/3 off retail price on 2 yr old electronics ?? A shutter count was a great standard...not so much now with mirrorless and especially for the guys that shoot video all day....I wouldnt buy one from a videographer.....espec​ially as hot as these newer cameras get....cant measure what heat does to electronics

And then I have two sLRS bodies that have had main circuit fail entirely, or rotary switch flakiness and getting worse, and both bodies have well under 60K actuations, with COVID avoidance adding to the idleness.

Wilt wrote in post #19454623
Right...sometimes the Prius uses its electric motor, sometimes it uses its gas engine...it depends upon the usage profile and how often the user exceeds the battery capacity so the car must start its gas powered engine. So the gas engine does not have its wear necessarily represented by the mileage gauge on the dash.

Similarly, the mirrorless camera sometimes uses its electronic shutter, and sometimes it uses its mechanical shutter (maybe because the user shoots with electronic flash and does not own a Nikon Z9; of maybe they are trying to avoid the distortions caused by rolling shutter). So the mechanical shutter wear is not necessarily represented by the shutter actuation count see with software that reports such figures.

A hybrid vehicle is a great analogy!

Perhaps the current mirrorless bodies should be considered hybrid cameras? Isn't the rolling shutter the only downside to using ES? Once that is overcome, wouldn't we only use ES?

Pure "electric" cameras from that point on.

View_Finder wrote in post #19454675
A hybrid vehicle is a great analogy!

Perhaps the current mirrorless bodies should be considered hybrid cameras? Isn't the rolling shutter the only downside to using ES? Once that is overcome, wouldn't we only use ES?

Pure "electric" cameras from that point on.

For most mirrorless, they have to use mechanical shutter to utilize external electronic flash...the Nikon Z9 was the first camera to claim it could eliminate the mechanical shutter, yet retain ability to trigger external electronic flash.

The Canon R3 can also use flash with electronic shutter. Although the hot shoe adapter AD-E1 for the older flashes on the new hot shoe design on the R3 is virtually impossible to get here. I've had one on order since I bought the camera, but so far to no avail.
Besides, since the AF illumination in the flashes doesn't work well with the mirrorless camera, the R3 isn't that terrific for flash use anyway.

umphotography wrote in post #19454283
how many of us would buy these used electronics ??

I would, and I've been an engineer with electronics for more than 40 years...
Personally have no problem at all with buying used gear, especially electronic.

I must have own wrong mirrorless cameras. Every time I took exposure it was mechanical shutter, no ES.
Now back to only Leica M220 as mirrorless and this one shows shutter count and has no ES.

No, I also have couple of Ricoh from GRD series. Those are showing shutter counts as well and no ES.
Not sure what to judge on those cameras since most of them are 100 USD price range.

The only mirrorless I see reason to get for myself is Oly E-M5. Those are 300 USD price range.
But most likely I'm going to get on Pentax K series for true weather sealed kit.

I guess I still don't quite get this thread? Mirrorless and live view/video capabilities have been around for a decade. Even Canon has had mirrorless for a half decade or more at this point.

Do we need some form of new assessment on used gear, where somehow things are failing for the masses currently? Or is it just Canon that doesn't record ES usage or video minutes usage and the other manufacturers do?

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19456283
I guess I still don't quite get this thread? Mirrorless and live view/video capabilities have been around for a decade. Even Canon has had mirrorless for a half decade or more at this point.

Do we need some form of new assessment on used gear, where somehow things are failing for the masses currently? Or is it just Canon that doesn't record ES usage or video minutes usage and the other manufacturers do?

Actually, mirror-less has been around a lot longer than mirrored cameras. Every P/S, compact, phone, video camera out there is of mirror-less design. It's just the SLR/DSLR folks that believe it to be something new.