What will be the standard for judging used mirrorless cameras?

Wilt wrote in post #19453981
I have a very long time friend who drove a Prius around for 14 years and 180,000 miles, and it still had the original battery!
Dunno about switches getting flakey, or about how rattling the ride had become. Prius is analogous to Canon mirrorless...two kinds of engines (vs. two kinds of shutters), no major repairs in the lifetime of ownership.

Regular hybrid batteries like the one found in the prius will have a MUCH longer lifespan that a dedicated plug in EV. The two are not really comparable.
The Prius battery will never be asked to push the loaded vehicle along at 75mph on a highway. The Prius battery will never be asked to go from mostly discharged, to fully charged in a matter of hours on a high speed charger, etc..

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #19456310
Regular hybrid batteries like the one found in the prius will have a MUCH longer lifespan that a dedicated plug in EV. The two are not really comparable.
The Prius battery will never be asked to push the loaded vehicle along at 75mph on a highway. The Prius battery will never be asked to go from mostly discharged, to fully charged in a matter of hours on a high speed charger, etc..

Yes, nevertheless Toyota had stated, at time of purchase, the need to replace batteries after 7 years, but he drove 14 years on the originals.
Conventional (gas) engine cars need their batteries replaced about every 6-7 years, too. And those batteries only provide electricity to start the engine, and the alternator typically handles the entire load while driving. So not stressed either, much like Prius battery. (Yes, I know, different battery chemistry in gas powered vs. Prius)

Wilt wrote in post #19456331
Yes, nevertheless Toyota had stated, at time of purchase, the need to replace batteries after 7 years, but he drove 14 years on the originals.
Conventional (gas) engine cars need their batteries replaced about every 6-7 years, too. And those batteries only provide electricity to start the engine, and the alternator typically handles the entire load while driving. So not stressed either, much like Prius battery. (Yes, I know, different battery chemistry in gas powered vs. Prius)

Prius is also gas powered. It's a hybrid.
Prius does have a lead acid cell in addition to the motive battery. Early versions of the car had NiHM (nickel metal hydride), while newer versions have lithium ion.

Some gas powered aircraft have moved to lithium ion in place of lead-acid due to reduced weight for the same power, so "gas powered" != "lead acid".

Lead acid batteries in cars are stressed more than you might expect.

I stand by my statement about electronics. I worked in the auto industry for 20 years. The most frequent and expensive repairs were electronics for all MFG's. Window motors, seat motors, these types of things nickle/dime you to death. And while we are on the subject of batteries.....a chevy volt battery for their electric vehicle costs $19000.00 to replace. There have been numerous receipts on the net from people who are getting replacements and quotes for a battery. I had some type of circuit board go out on my 1Dx....under warranty...the person at Canon irvine told me the part was over $800.....that was about 8 yrs ago

camera electronics fail and when they do....its expensive

I got curious about the Prius per the discussion here and I don't think you can really call it a EV at all. It's still a gas powered car with an electric motor that's used until the gas engine can take over. I guess I always envisioned that the gas powered engine was used to charge the batteries and the batteries/electric motor was moving the car. Turns out that this is not the case at all. The gas engine powers the car and the electric motor is used as an assist when driving slow thus enabling the Prius to use a much smaller gas engine. Have a peek at the video below. The guy does a pretty decent job explaining how the Prius works.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=E_xCssR8qQI

umphotography wrote in post #19456374
I stand by my statement about electronics. I worked in the auto industry for 20 years. The most frequent and expensive repairs were electronics for all MFG's. Window motors, seat motors, these types of things nickle/dime you to death. And while we are on the subject of batteries.....a chevy volt battery for their electric vehicle costs $19000.00 to replace. There have been numerous receipts on the net from people who are getting replacements and quotes for a battery. I had some type of circuit board go out on my 1Dx....under warranty...the person at Canon irvine told me the part was over $800.....that was about 8 yrs ago

camera electronics fail and when they do....its expensive

Motors are electric, not electronic. Electronics control motors and are more reliable than the motors.
Of course electronics fail, I don't think anyone thinks otherwise.
As you referred to auto industry experience, you should know that the introduction of electronic ignition and EFI greatly increased reliability.

Wilt wrote in post #19456331
Yes, nevertheless Toyota had stated, at time of purchase, the need to replace batteries after 7 years, but he drove 14 years on the originals.
Conventional (gas) engine cars need their batteries replaced about every 6-7 years, too. And those batteries only provide electricity to start the engine, and the alternator typically handles the entire load while driving. So not stressed either, much like Prius battery. (Yes, I know, different battery chemistry in gas powered vs. Prius)

Lead acid batteries are definitely stressed. Physically. The supporting structure for the lead plates fail. Vibration and shock. The plates themselves also crack and fail.
The different chemistries that you mentioned, really make them so different that there is no point comparing them to the Big Cats.

Choderboy wrote in post #19456401
As you referred to auto industry experience, you should know that the introduction of electronic ignition and EFI greatly increased reliability.

I remember the days when you would have to break out the tach/dwell meter, adjust everything per factory specs, test it being very unhappy with the performance and breaking out the meter again and tweaking both parameters until you got it just right for your particular motor. I am a huge fan of electronic ignition.

So to the actual question ofthis thread, age and cosmetic condition. Also sellers claimed use and credibility of those claims.
Logic with electronics is that if it works, it works. If it has workedfor 3 months, chances are it will work for years.
Little changes. Mechanical shutters can fail at anytime.

gjl711 wrote in post #19456289
Actually, mirror-less has been around a lot longer than mirrored cameras. Every P/S, compact, phone, video camera out there is of mirror-less design. It's just the SLR/DSLR folks that believe it to be something new.

Sure but there never was really a heavy resellers market for those versus ILC cameras.

gjl711 wrote in post #19456404
I remember the days when you would have to break out the tach/dwell meter, adjust everything per factory specs, test it being very unhappy with the performance and breaking out the meter again and tweaking both parameters until you got it just right for your particular motor. I am a huge fan of electronic ignition.

My first vehicle with electronic ignition was a motorbike and it (CDI) failed within weeks of ownership. I knew that was not going to be a common problem. Not only was ketering ignition a hassle maintenance wise, depending on where the distributor was located, it could easily be disabled with a puddle, eg, Ford V8s. I had Holden V8s with dizzy at the back, a bit of a stretch to get to but did not suffer from radiator fan dousing it with water.
Good riddance to the electro mechanical nightmare.

Choderboy wrote in post #19456449
My first vehicle with electronic ignition was a motorbike and it (CDI) failed within weeks of ownership. I knew that was not going to be a common problem. Not only was ketering ignition a hassle maintenance wise, depending on where the distributor was located, it could easily be disabled with a puddle, eg, Ford V8s. I had Holden V8s with dizzy at the back, a bit of a stretch to get to but did not suffer from radiator fan dousing it with water.
Good riddance to the electro mechanical nightmare.

My first was with a boat, a Bayliner with a Merc 140 inboard/outboard. It was a conversion kit. That boat was a mess until we installed the electronic ignition.

Since this thread has sort of gone off the rails with the talk about car batteries, point ignitions vs electronic and so on I'd like to relay what I think is a funny story that i know to be true because it happened to me around 1982.

I went to a small local automotive shop.

Me: I need a distributor cap for a gm V8 electronic ignition
Clerk: what year is the car?
Me: 68
Clerk: They didn't have electronic ignition in 68
Me: engine is 73
Clerk: They didn't have electronic ignition in 73
Me: distributor is 76
Clerk: Oh, never mind.

I did get the right distributor cap.

Rod

After all that, the distributor cap was for my car, pic taken in 1983, 454 cid with 4 on the floor. God I loved that car.

Wilt wrote in post #19456331
Yes, nevertheless Toyota had stated, at time of purchase, the need to replace batteries after 7 years, but he drove 14 years on the originals.
Conventional (gas) engine cars need their batteries replaced about every 6-7 years, too. And those batteries only provide electricity to start the engine, and the alternator typically handles the entire load while driving. So not stressed either, much like Prius battery. (Yes, I know, different battery chemistry in gas powered vs. Prius)

And to be clear, I agree with you, Just wanted to point out the difference in duty use hybrid vs. fully electric driving. Even a plug in hybrid (which is what I drive) sees far more dedicated use of the batteries. In that case, the degradation is more evident due to lower range. If you buy a tesla with 320 mile range, and three years later it's dropped to maxing out at 300, not so big a deal.

My Clarity has a 46 mile range in warm weather. Or should I say had. 4 years in it's dropped a few miles. Winter is far worse. I'm getting 30 miles right now. (last winter more like 36)
With such low range to begin with it's quite evident. I will say that amongst clarity drivers I have become, lets just say, far from economic! My lovely Honda love to drive far in excess of the speed limit. Couple that with the fat that i have been to the gas station three times since August, and I am sure my driving behavior has prematurely advanced the age of the battery.

All that said, the fears of battery woes are without question being over-hyped, pushed by an agenda that would like to slow the adoption of alternative fuel cars as much as possible. It's a lot of crying wolf with no real data behind it. Usually if there is an example, it's one, "this guys tesla battery already needed to be swapped" type stuff.

gjl711 wrote in post #19456377
I got curious about the Prius per the discussion here and I don't think you can really call it a EV at all. It's still a gas powered car with an electric motor that's used until the gas engine can take over. I guess I always envisioned that the gas powered engine was used to charge the batteries and the batteries/electric motor was moving the car. Turns out that this is not the case at all. The gas engine powers the car and the electric motor is used as an assist when driving slow thus enabling the Prius to use a much smaller gas engine. Have a peek at the video below. The guy does a pretty decent job explaining how the Prius works.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=E_xCssR8qQI

What you describe above is how some hybrids work, the prius does it different. there a number of combinations as well. A Prius can very definitely drive around on the battery, but it's capacity is so low that that is not the best use for it. The Prius prime has the same motors driving the wheels, but it can (on a good day) drive the Prime 25 miles on battery alone.

iirc The Bolt or Volt plug in hybrid (I can never remember which is EV and which is PHEV) is more like your first example. It drives on battery and the motor helps keep the battery charged.