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Thread started 05 Aug 2006 (Saturday) 07:19
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DPP noise reduction & image size. Bug or feature?

 
René ­ Damkot
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Aug 05, 2006 07:19 |  #1

I write this up FYI, but also because any advice is welcome ;)

I have an image, that needs to be printed Big (1,4x3,0 meters)
Since shooting circumstances were less then ideal (as usual), there is quite a bit work to be done, and I'ld like to get an as good as possible result.
This is the image:

IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/backdrop.jpg

First of, I tried what would give best results; enlarging in PS (either in small steps, or in 1 big step), or enlarging the RAW in DPP.
Here I met the first full stop: For some reason DPP won't go to 3 meters wide @ 100dpi.
Maximum image size seems to be limited to 9999 x 6666 pixels.
Strange thing is, that if I apply a crop, the image can be enlarged more. So it seems the maximum output is 9999 pixels wide.
Sadly (as far as processing time is concerned) enlarging to 9999x6666 in DPP produced slightly better results then enlarging in PS. Bummer. I'm sure I'll get enough coffee today :p

Second thing I came across was that the noise reduction in DPP seems to have 'Luminance noise' and 'chrominance noise' reversed.
Edit: I think I was confused here: Must have been all the coffee. Upon looking again, I was wrong here.

Example (100% crop of original (not enlarged) image files):
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/DPP_NR.jpg
I think the abbreviations speak for themselves.

Note that when you set DPP to High Chrominance noise reduction you get quite severe 'halos' around highlights. Not unusable at 100%, but even 'Medium' was too much in this case.

Since this image will be enlarged to about 11000 pixels wide (3 meters at 100 dpi) I tend to be more 'pixel peeping' then I usually am.
Very curious if my G4 1GHz will cope with the files, since the image consists of 4 layers (1 guitar player, because in the original his head is behind a microphone; 3 layers with different EC in DPP) each layer being a 385Mb; 16bpc tiff....

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ghosh
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Aug 06, 2006 06:26 |  #2

Very sharp picture. Well taken. Sorry I am not a PS expert so cant help you in that.


#include <iostream>
int main() {
std::cout << "POTN is the best." << std::endl;
return 0; }


  
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René ­ Damkot
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Aug 06, 2006 07:22 |  #3

For those interested: Here is the A4 version (external link) as a quality 12 jpg.
100% crops Here (external link) (5 parts of heads on 1 A4)

Maximum file size I reached was around 2,5 Gb, so yes, I definately got enough coffee ;)

Picture isn't all that sharp (lens was fully opene, there is motion blurr, focus isn't spot on), so the sharpening was difficult, because mostly the noise got sharpened way more then the persons.

If anybody has any tips, I'm all ears!


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Wavy ­ C
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Aug 06, 2006 07:25 |  #4

Fantastic picture - I love it!

Afraid, like gosh, I'm not expert enough in processing to be able to help either. There used to be a photoshop plugin called General Fractals that claimed to be able to enlarge pictures to much bigger sizes without much loss of quality, but I haven't used it so can't really comment on how well or otherwise it works.



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It wasn't me!

  
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René ­ Damkot
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Aug 07, 2006 05:14 |  #5

Thanks!
Tried a few different ways of upscaling in PS; from the original 1D2 file to 300cm at 100dpi:
in 1 step using Bicubic Smoother, in 10% increments, using bicubic Smoother, and finally, after searchin these forums, I tried 10% increments, twice bicubic Smoother, once bicubic sharper (repeated as often as needed). The '3 step method' gave marginally better results.
Still, starting off with a 9999x6666 pixels file was best. That's kind of a large file in 16bpc :p


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asylumxl
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Aug 07, 2006 15:51 |  #6

and god said, use noise ninja, and he did, and got beautifully smooth, detailed results


...............
I M A G E I N A T I O N
..........WEBSITE (external link)
...............
Pixel peeping is like count the sides of a circle, pointless.

  
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René ­ Damkot
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Aug 07, 2006 16:19 |  #7

Yeah, that might work... Problem is, I don't have Noise Image or Neat Image... (downloaded the trial version, which works on 1024x1024 px maximum, so not much use to evaluate with. I might buy it in the future, but mostly, I'm not that obsessed with noise. If anything, I mostly find myself *adding* noise)
I gave PS 'Noise Reduction' a try, but that mostly softened the image, and didn't remove much noise, probabely because the noise was a lot bigger then 'pixel level' due to the extreme enlargement...


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asylumxl
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Aug 07, 2006 16:42 |  #8

ok here is the a4 100% crops put through a slight reduction in noise ninja. i put reduction low to keep as much detail as possible.

click here (external link)


...............
I M A G E I N A T I O N
..........WEBSITE (external link)
...............
Pixel peeping is like count the sides of a circle, pointless.

  
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René ­ Damkot
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Aug 07, 2006 16:51 |  #9

Thanks. This is too much noise reduction for me though.... Also it leaves in the noise I'ld most like to get rid off, and removes the finer noise. Just like Photoshop's noise reduction did. Looses *a lot* of detail IMHO.
Of course NN did a splendid job removing the noise I had put on top of the image ;)
IIRC a friend of mine has Noise Ninja, I'll give it a try on the High res file before adding noise. (Good thing he also has a dual G5 ;))


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asylumxl
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Aug 08, 2006 05:28 |  #10

i see, well if you compare them directly, i dont think there is much detail lost, but to each there own.


...............
I M A G E I N A T I O N
..........WEBSITE (external link)
...............
Pixel peeping is like count the sides of a circle, pointless.

  
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tzalman
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Aug 08, 2006 07:58 |  #11

Rene -
You may be interested in trying this technique:
http://www.outbackphot​o.com/workflow/wf_60/e​ssay.html (external link)
I've never done it myself - I don't use PSCS - but I have seen it praised on several other forums.
Elie


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René ­ Damkot
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Aug 08, 2006 08:19 |  #12

Thanks!
Interesting read... That was about the only way to upsize in PS I had *not* tried ;)
I'll give it a try.


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
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PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
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asylumxl
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Aug 08, 2006 09:10 |  #13

you ever tried genuine fractals?


...............
I M A G E I N A T I O N
..........WEBSITE (external link)
...............
Pixel peeping is like count the sides of a circle, pointless.

  
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René ­ Damkot
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Aug 08, 2006 10:01 |  #14

Nope. Googled it though, and looks okay. Don't know if it's going to be a lot better then the version upsized in DPP, but I'm going to give it a try...
Thanks.


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
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PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
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DrPablo
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Aug 09, 2006 10:54 |  #15

I have a wimpier computer than yours, and though it groans and complains when I scan my large format negatives, it can handle it.

I'd first say, upscale your image in RAW. A 10-15% enlargement in the RAW converter is probably a more accurate interpolation than doing it later in PS (because there's so much more pixel information). I'd then reduce noise before doing any further upscaling. I often run a median filter at 1 pixel and then fade it to 15-20%. You can also go to LAB color and slightly blur your A and B channels to reduce color noise.

The next steps will be gradual upscaling, probably using bicubic sharper, and doing regional sharpening at each stage.

I'd use high radius-low amount sharpening (like unsharp mask with amount 20 and radius 20-50) to sharpen big enlargements without getting too much artifact.

Just only upscale by around 10% at each step until you get to the desired pixel count.


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DPP noise reduction & image size. Bug or feature?
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