Need advice on low-light action shots

I'm sure there are many threads on this topic already, but I have a specific question regarding equipment.

My daughter is a high school cheerleader, and I'm trying to get shots of her during evening football games. As all of you probably know, the lighting is less than ideal, and the action shots I'm getting are complete crap. I'm new to SLR photography (hence my user name), I'm using a 20D with the 17-85 EF-S lens in auto-mode most of the time. I've tried using the manual modes and cranking up the ISO...but the noise of the photos was unbarable.
I was thinking that maybe an external flash, or a lens with larger aperature might fix the problem (somewhat)...and I'm wondering which of the two items would be a better investment...the Canon Speedlite 580EX, or the Canon 200mm f/2.8L lens.

I have the Canon 70-200 f/4L, but its the non-I.S. model and I dont have a tripod to prevent hand-shake (not that it would matter much when they're doing their stunts). I dont really have the budget to drop more than $600 on an upgrade right now, and the 200mm was the only tele lens that I found in that price range. However, most of the time the girls are not that far away...so I thought perhaps the 50mm f/1.4 or the 85mm f/1.8 would help.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Perhaps you could post some examples. I've got some useable hand held shots with my 17-85 as low as 1/4 sec. Granted, they were static subjects, not moving. A couple of examples would help us determine if your bad results were due to user error, as opposed to equipment limitations.

Good idea, I'll upload them this evening (I'm at work right now on the tail-end of a 9-day stretch).

Thanks

In your situation faster glass is better than slower glass with IS. IS will just help with non moving subjects. If she's a cheerleader that's not moving then she's not doing her job haha.

So, I'd go with a fast lens. Set your 17-85 to 50mm and see if that's close enough. If it's not then set it to 85mm and see if it's better. Or look at all your photos of her when she's cheerleading to see what zoom you've used the most.

Then use that to decide if you want a 50mm 1.4 or 85mm 1.8. Both are superb, fast, good focusing, sharp lenses.

You're going to have to get away from the auto modes if you want to progress, also. You're going to have to find out the best exposure settings to use when shooting these action shots in low light. If I was in your place I'd get a good exposure in M mode (check histogram)along with a nice ISO. Enough to freeze some action and I'd use that setting for the whole shoot if the lighting stays the same (for example if it all takes place indoors)

Another tip:

Don't just "crank" up the ISO. Choose an ISO that's enough to give you the shutter speed needed to freeze action. As long as you get a good exposure....even at a high ISO like 800 or 1600 you can get noise you can deal with. Use a noise removable plugin for photoshop if needed. A noisier picture is better than a blurry picture.

grab yourself something in the 2.8 range...shoot in raw and maybe manual mode. Shooting in raw will help correct the images because of poor lighting. Manual mode might help in getting the right Av Tv combo to freeze the action. You'll still get some blurring, but that's expected because it's night time.

Thanks for the input, guys.

Jackal... what is a "Histogram" and how do you check it??

Sageone...if I shoot in RAW, will it be necessary to correct the images in Adobe CS2? I'm a beginner with the software as well.

Speaking of software...does anyone have (or know where I can obtain) instructions on how to use the "NoiseNinja" plugin for Photoshop?

Thanks

Point-N-Shoot wrote in post #2063201
Sageone...if I shoot in RAW, will it be necessary to correct the images in Adobe CS2? I'm a beginner with the software as well.

Yes, you will need software to turn raw into jpeg. I use Adobe Camera Raw. It's really simple to use. You can also try Adobe Lightroom (though still in beta and quite buggy).

Point-N-Shoot wrote in post #2063201
Thanks for the input, guys.

Jackal... what is a "Histogram" and how do you check it??

When reviewing pictures on your camera's LCD press the "info" button until you see this graph.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com …standing-histograms.shtml

There's a little info on how it works.

Point-N-Shoot wrote in post #2057932
I'm wondering which of the two items would be a better investment...the Canon Speedlite 580EX, or the Canon 200mm f/2.8L lens.

The 200mm is a sweet piece of glass, but it's also fairly specialized and has limited usefulness. At some point you might want to consider a 70-200 zoom lens which is much more versatile.

But if you like shooting people (most amateur photographers shoot people more than any other kind of subject), then I would definitely recommend a good flash unit. Flash photography requires a learning curve, but it can improve almost any "people" shot, indoors or outdoors.

Nighttime football is a difficult environment, but a flash unit, skillfully used, could enable you to freeze the movement of even the most energetic cheerleader.

As for high ISO settings, don't be afraid to use them when you need to. The noise you see when you view at 100% on your monitor will all but disappear in any print smaller than 8 x 10.

Curtis N wrote in post #2064349
The 200mm is a sweet piece of glass, but it's also fairly specialized and has limited usefulness. At some point you might want to consider a 70-200 zoom lens which is much more versatile.

But if you like shooting people (most amateur photographers shoot people more than any other kind of subject), then I would definitely recommend a good flash unit. Flash photography requires a learning curve, but it can improve almost any "people" shot, indoors or outdoors. Nighttime football is a difficult environment, but a flash unit, skillfully used, could enable you to freeze the movement of even the most energetic cheerleader.

I have the 70-200 f/4L...do you think that, combined with a Speedlite, it would produce better shots than my 17-85? I also have the 50mm f/1.8, but I've never attempted to use it...I just picked it up because it was only $70.00

Curtis N wrote in post #2064349
As for high ISO settings, don't be afraid to use them when you need to. The noise you see when you view at 100% on your monitor will all but disappear in any print smaller than 8 x 10.

That's good info, thanks Curtis.

Jackal wrote in post #2064199
When reviewing pictures on your camera's LCD press the "info" button until you see this graph.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com …standing-histograms.shtml

There's a little info on how it works.

Thanks, Jackal...I'll be reading it this evening!!

Point-N-Shoot wrote in post #2066299
I have the 70-200 f/4L...do you think that, combined with a Speedlite, it would produce better shots than my 17-85? I also have the 50mm f/1.8, but I've never attempted to use it...

If you can get close enough, use the 17-85. Being close has other advantages, such as better flash illumination (so you can use a lower ISO) and fewer problems with redeye. Those two lenses vary so much in focal length that your choice will depend on which gives you the field of view you want from whatever shooting location you can wiggle yourself into.

I would definitely be worth trying the nifty fifty without flash. Again, whether or not it's useful depends on whether you can adjust your position to make the focal length work. The 50mm f/1.8 is more than two stops faster than your 70-200. That could mean the difference between 1/80 shutter speed and 1/320. Or it could mean the difference between ISO 3200 and ISO 800. It's always a compromise.