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Thread started 11 Oct 2006 (Wednesday) 13:26
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Sharpest two stops down....or not?

 
Radtech1
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Oct 11, 2006 13:26 |  #1

I know that anecdotally, we are told that "lenses are sharpest two stops down from wide open."

What I don't know is any studies/test/shootouts to demonstrate that. In fact, I seem to remember reading that lenses are sharpest wide open, but very few camera operators can focus with such an unforgivingly shallow DOF. (I just looked through Luminous Landscape - that is apparently not where I read it.)

What I am interested in is links, if you know of any, to empirical tests/data that show where lenses are sharpest.

Thanks in advance,

Rad


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Wilt
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Oct 11, 2006 13:32 |  #2

You only need to look at MTF curves, or the numerical results of lens tests such as those published at photozone.de

Few lenses perform best wide open!


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rdenney
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Oct 11, 2006 14:25 |  #3

Radtech1 wrote in post #2106933 (external link)
What I am interested in is links, if you know of any, to empirical tests/data that show where lenses are sharpest.

Rather than provide links to online lens tests, I would rather address the underlying basis for that rule of thumb. That way, instead of trying to verify a rule, you'll know how to make your own rules.

Every lens has its own sweet spot. As you stop down, the fuzziness caused by diffraction increases. Most lenses show visible diffraction effects at the smallest apertures.

Most lenses also reveal their inherent optical faults when they are used wide open. As you stop down, the effects of these faults diminish.

The sweet spot is that point where both lens faults and diffraction effects are jointly minimized.

Some lenses perform best wide open. I have a Zeiss Jena Sonnar that is better at f/2.8 than at f/11. And I expect my 70-200/4L is nearly as good at f/4 as it is at f/8. I have a large-format Schneider Super Angulon that performs optimally at f/22-f/32, but at f/45 diffraction effects are clearly visible. Thus, there's no way to have a general rule of thumb.

The closest you can come is to say that most lenses will perform best at the smallest aperture that keeps the effects of diffraction below the threshold of acceptability. For some of my medium-format lenses, that's f/11 or even f/16. But some lenses are so well-optimized for wide-open usage that there is no effective improvement from stopping down except as a result of increased depth off field.

Just take some pictures of a detailed target over a range of aperture settings and look at the images in actual pixels on your computer monitor. That will tell you what the optimum aperture is for that lens. But remember that the optimum aperture isn't useful if it forces you to use a shutter speed that allows motion blur, or if it lacks sufficient depth of field.

Rick "who thinks other influences on aperture are more important" Denney


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Double ­ Negative
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Oct 11, 2006 14:55 |  #4

Each lens is different. Typically, shooting around f/5.6-8.0 will give you the best sharpness with any given lens. Shooting both wide open or stopped down fully are the least sharp and may introduce other issues.


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Tom ­ W
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Oct 11, 2006 15:12 |  #5

I would agree with the other 3 - all lenses are different. And all criteria are different.

The "rule of thumb" applies well to all lenses, but there are some lenses like the 200/1.8 or 300/2.8 that are at their sharpest wide open or 1 stop down. Other lenses perform their best stopped down more than 2 stops. My copy of the 16-35 at 16 mm on full frame performs its best at f/11 to 1/16 when corner performance is considered, whereas when center performance only is considered, it's sharp wide open and very good at f/4.


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Wilt
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Oct 11, 2006 15:25 |  #6

Interesting how one's perceptions stack up (or not) against the lab tests. Photozone shows 300 f/2.8 performing best in MTF at f/5.6, and least amount of vignetting at that same f/stop...two stops down from max! And the 16-35 does best in center at f/4 and f/5.6, one or two stops from max, and at f/5.6 and f/8 at the edge (no figures for f/11 or f/16, admittedly!)


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Double ­ Negative
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Oct 11, 2006 15:44 |  #7

Wide angles are prone to fall-off in sharpness and even light at the edges way more than your average standard-to-telephoto focal lengths... So stopping down is more important.

With very bright lenses, typically designated as L - you're paying for not only the extra brightness but also being able to USE it. That's not to say stopping down won't help any, but they're much better wide open than their cheaper counterparts.


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Tom ­ W
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Oct 11, 2006 15:57 |  #8

Wilt wrote in post #2107468 (external link)
Interesting how one's perceptions stack up (or not) against the lab tests. Photozone shows 300 f/2.8 performing best in MTF at f/5.6, and least amount of vignetting at that same f/stop...two stops down from max! And the 16-35 does best in center at f/4 and f/5.6, one or two stops from max, and at f/5.6 and f/8 at the edge (no figures for f/11 or f/16, admittedly!)

Keep in mind that photozone tests these lenses on a 350D, so corner performance is largely untested. The 16-35 lens is interesting on a 5D as you can literally stop down and watch the area of good sharpness grow from the center at f/2.8 to the corners at f/11 when shooting at 16 mm.


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JaGWiRE
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Oct 11, 2006 15:58 |  #9

Double Negative wrote in post #2107367 (external link)
Each lens is different. Typically, shooting around f/5.6-8.0 will give you the best sharpness with any given lens. Shooting both wide open or stopped down fully are the least sharp and may introduce other issues.

What if your shooting a lens that is wide open at f5.6 at say 300mm? If you shoot 300mm and at 5.6, would it still be considered sharp, or would it fall under the rule where if it's wide open it's the least sharp.

I'm also curious about how this rule applies to the cheaper super telephotos like the sigma bigma and tamron 200-500 (similiar to the queston above I guess.)


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Tom ­ W
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Oct 11, 2006 16:16 |  #10

JaGWiRE wrote in post #2107585 (external link)
What if your shooting a lens that is wide open at f5.6 at say 300mm? If you shoot 300mm and at 5.6, would it still be considered sharp, or would it fall under the rule where if it's wide open it's the least sharp.

I'm also curious about how this rule applies to the cheaper super telephotos like the sigma bigma and tamron 200-500 (similiar to the queston above I guess.)


Again, it depends on the lens, and your requirements. My 100-400 zoom at 400 mm shows a noticeable improvement when stopping down from f/5.6 to f/7.1. Stopping down further might have a measureable difference, but it generally doesn't matter to me at that point.

My 300/4 IS prime was sharper wide-open at f/4 than the 100-400 was at f/5.6 & 300 mm, but both showed improvement by stopping down.


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JaGWiRE
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Oct 11, 2006 16:21 |  #11

Tom W wrote in post #2107660 (external link)
Again, it depends on the lens, and your requirements. My 100-400 zoom at 400 mm shows a noticeable improvement when stopping down from f/5.6 to f/7.1. Stopping down further might have a measureable difference, but it generally doesn't matter to me at that point.

My 300/4 IS prime was sharper wide-open at f/4 than the 100-400 was at f/5.6 & 300 mm, but both showed improvement by stopping down.

Hehe. I see. If I do ever get a super telephoto (probably Tamron 200-500), I probably wouldn't care much about stopping down as I'de be shooting outdoors and with a tripod anyway.


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Double ­ Negative
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Oct 11, 2006 16:28 |  #12

JaGWiRE wrote in post #2107684 (external link)
Hehe. I see. If I do ever get a super telephoto (probably Tamron 200-500), I probably wouldn't care much about stopping down as I'de be shooting outdoors and with a tripod anyway.

Exactly... And basically, what Tom said. If you start off at f/5.6, sure - you'll need to stop down to say, f/8.0 or f/11 to reach the sweet spot. I was hesitant to agree with stopping down two stops as a generic rule - because what if you have a bright prime?

I guess the point is, stopping down a couple of stops and into the middle of the range is where you'll generally find the best performance of any lens.


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JaGWiRE
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Oct 11, 2006 16:36 |  #13

Double Negative wrote in post #2107708 (external link)
Exactly... And basically, what Tom said. If you start off at f/5.6, sure - you'll need to stop down to say, f/8.0 or f/11 to reach the sweet spot. I was hesitant to agree with stopping down two stops as a generic rule - because what if you have a bright prime?

I guess the point is, stopping down a couple of stops and into the middle of the range is where you'll generally find the best performance of any lens.


You know I think shooting wide open has done more harm to peoples photos then good (for me atleast.) For example, say you own a 70-200 f2.8 (choosing a random lens here that is pretty wide wide open), and you shoot wide open outdoors out of habit. Chances are you'll get some shots with too shallow a depth of field required for whatever you were shooting.

Anyway, as much as I'de love to be able to get beautiful bokeh whenever I want, it seems that you need glass that costs a lot of $. I have a 50mm 1.8 (going to return it) and have serious problems shooting wide open with it (like many others.)


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JNunn
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Oct 11, 2006 19:19 |  #14

Since I started in photography shooting medium format where f/2.8 is considered fast, I'm often amazed at how much concern there is over shooting wide open. Or the absolute complusion some people have for only the fastest lenses. Some of the sharpest photographs I've ever taken were taken with ASA 32 or 64, or 80 (almost never past 100) film at f/21 or f/32 or even f/45. That said I almost never use flash, preferring natural light in almost every case.

Shooting at f/2.8 or lower actually is a bit confining in that the DOF is so minimal. Let's see...not good for close portraits (unless you don't care that the ears aren't in focus while the nose is)...not too good for macro (unless your bug or flower is flat!)...not good for landscapes, etc.etc.

I guess that's why I don't find my 70-200mm f/4 or 17-40 f/4 painfully slow as do some people. I almost always need DOF and that means stopping the lens down.




  
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JaGWiRE
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Oct 11, 2006 19:30 |  #15

JNunn wrote in post #2108408 (external link)
Since I started in photography shooting medium format where f/2.8 is considered fast, I'm often amazed at how much concern there is over shooting wide open. Or the absolute complusion some people have for only the fastest lenses. Some of the sharpest photographs I've ever taken were taken with ASA 32 or 64, or 80 (almost never past 100) film at f/21 or f/32 or even f/45. That said I almost never use flash, preferring natural light in almost every case.

Shooting at f/2.8 or lower actually is a bit confining in that the DOF is so minimal. Let's see...not good for close portraits (unless you don't care that the ears aren't in focus while the nose is)...not too good for macro (unless your bug or flower is flat!)...not good for landscapes, etc.etc.

I guess that's why I don't find my 70-200mm f/4 or 17-40 f/4 painfully slow as do some people. I almost always need DOF and that means stopping the lens down.

I agree with most of what you said. I don't have a flash yet (going to buy one), but I also really like shooting with natural light.


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