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FORUMS Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon Lenses 
Thread started 12 Oct 2006 (Thursday) 16:53
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Overkilling the sensor

 
Reptile ­ Bob
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Oct 13, 2006 10:31 |  #31

I think the main issue here is what the limiting factor on resolution is: the lens or the sensor. If your sensor could register every photon and be any MP, then the lens would limit the resolution. If you had a lens that took every photon and focused it exactly where it needed to go, then the sensor would limit max resolution.

So currently, it is true that the lens gives the sensor more information and detail then the sensor can pick up. If canon put out a new L lens with twice the resolution power of its current best lens, it wouldn't make any visible difference. However, if you take any L lens off a rebel and put it on a 1Ds Mark II, you will see a higher resolution (although probably not a whole lot).

That being said, I'd rather have the camera being the limiting factor, as I'll probably replace it every few years as the technology grows, but my 70-200 2.8L IS is staying with me forever!

Robert


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Nick_C
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Oct 13, 2006 10:33 |  #32

Seefutlung wrote in post #2115358 (external link)
What I read is precisely the opposite of what is occurring in present day (top of the line) digital photography.

Presently, the resolution of top of the line optics are about to be surpassed by sensors ... lens makers are scrambling to improve optical resolution to keep up with sensors. Many are taking liquid lens and such to break the optical resolution ceiling barrier of glass.

That is true, from what ive seen not even top of the range L lenses are any really to rave about, they are better than most but every lens has its flaws & a sweet spot, the problems get worse on FF cameras.

Nick :-)




  
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Nick_C
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Oct 13, 2006 10:36 |  #33

Reptile Bob wrote in post #2115368 (external link)
but my 70-200 2.8L IS is staying with me forever!

Robert

Unless of course Canon decide to change all the mounts! then you would have to start using xxx > xxx converters, like I am with my old M42 lenses.

Lets hope the lens mounts dont go the way of computers, take an Intel CPU, the pinouts change with every new model, some only have 4 extra pins & yes you guessed it, a whole new MB is required..

Nick :-)




  
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rdenney
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Oct 13, 2006 15:25 |  #34

PhotoScout, quoting Shutterbug wrote in post #2112476 (external link)
Generally until you get into pricier digital SLRs with 12 or more megapixel resolution, the advantage of a professional-grade lens will not be markedly realized.

I can sure see the difference between good lenses and poor lenses on my 6-MP 10D.

Rick "not sure all those differences are relevant with normal print sizes, however" Denney


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braduardo
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Oct 13, 2006 17:11 |  #35

What I don't understand is how someone can say that BIGGER pixels will help... What I think would give you more RESOLUTION is the absolute smallest pixels you can get, and pack as many as you can possibly fit into an area. I keep seeing 'big pixel' this and 'big pixel' that in here, but when it comes to resolution, you want to have as many individual points in a given area that you can. Sort of like why you want a printer that does 4800x2400 dpi over one that does 1200x600 dpi... The former has a higer resolution.


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Nick_C
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Oct 13, 2006 17:16 |  #36

I think lenses are very much like the Hi-Fi sector, you get your really cheap sounding stuff which isnt worth spending money on, thats your kit lenses, then you get the great sounding Technics stuff which is really very good for the money, thats your standard Canon, Sigma & Tamron lenses, then you get the real top notch Hi-Fi equipment aimed at the purest who is seeking perfection, thats your top of the range L Lenses..

Truth be told, as with Hi-Fi there is the law of deminishing returns, so while the top of the range equipment may have the edge, its not THAT much of a difference, where as the price is a HUGE difference..

Im basically saying that im sure the CCD does have a limit, but with lenses you reach a point where paying any more doesnt get you any better results, the jumps in price get higher while the jumps in quality get smaller..

Nick :-)




  
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Longwatcher
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Oct 13, 2006 17:51 as a reply to  @ Nick_C's post |  #37

Short form: Get the best lens you can for the best camera you can.

Long form:
In a perfect situation you would match the lens to the camera/sensor for optimum resolution, contrast, sharpness, etc...

However, that would mean designing lenses for specific cameras (you see this effect a bit with the digital only lenses)

Meanwhile for the rest of the universe.
Generally the better the lens the better the picture. However there can be situations in which because the sensor out resolves the lens you get some unwanted effects caused by the sensor "seeing" the defects in the glass, however you are still likely to get a better picture then a lens which out-resolves the sensor (AKA a Kit lens)

There is also the effect of using an APS (C or H) sensor on a lens designed for FF, you end up with a point of diminishing returns very quickly because the center of the lens is almost always going to be better then the edges and corners. Once your sensor has out-resolved what it can see there is very little extra that can be gained (but there is some quality still to be gained well past twice the resolution).

An example of why a better lens is still better: Supposedly a FF camera with 12MP out-resolves all but the best prime lenses in Canon's line-up (85/1.2, 135/2) The FF camera will probably outresolve the corners of other lenses very fast, because it can see the bad part of the lens, but a better lens goes farther before the sensor out-resolves it. Eventually as pixels get densier even the center gets outresolved, but anybody that has used a good lens on a FF camera Knows the edges/corners look better with a good lens. For an APS-C camera it takes a higher pixel densisty, but even these out-resolve the center, but distortion gets worse from the center of the lens, so for even these cameras a better lens will be better just as it is for a FF camera.

I am starting to lose myself, so I will quit now.


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bard6817
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Oct 13, 2006 18:21 |  #38

I've got a 70-200L 2.8 IS, and have a 300L 2.8 heading my way...(Can't wait. only a couple of days to go..)

I'd love to attach a 1d, a 5d, or even a 30d would be nicer than my 350d, but it takes time to build up a collection...

Going the lens route first, gives me more bang for my buck, as I shoot Soccer, at night sometimes too... I need the 2.8, and i need the focal length... (Maybe i even need a second body!)

Sure, having the top of the range everything, or at least the matched kit for my purposes (1d mark2n) but the bank manager, and the girlfriend tend to slow these things down...

Still, i'm nearly there... My only issue is... Will this satisfy my L'addiction?


350d, 70-200L f2.8 IS USM, 300L f2.8 Prime.. And some i'd not want to talk about....

For Sale: Kids -> Will swap for 400mm f2.8 prime... Or a D1 Mark 2n (Machine Gun).. Just kidding... Have no kids left, all sold.

  
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mxwphoto
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Oct 13, 2006 19:38 |  #39

bard6817 wrote in post #2117040 (external link)
Still, i'm nearly there... My only issue is... Will this satisfy my L'addiction?


It will satisfy you for as long as you don't see what images the 600mm f/4 and the 200mm f/1.8 can produce! :D Of course, after you get those, then you'd want even further telescopic power... and that's when you'll turn to the 4064mm f/8 20" Meade RCX400 telescope! Imagine the details you'd get on wild life with that bad boy (assuming you have the skills to target em)! :lol:


Great shots are like great parking spaces... if you're not quick, it's gone!

  
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rdenney
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Oct 16, 2006 14:51 |  #40

braduardo wrote in post #2116790 (external link)
What I don't understand is how someone can say that BIGGER pixels will help... What I think would give you more RESOLUTION is the absolute smallest pixels you can get, and pack as many as you can possibly fit into an area. I keep seeing 'big pixel' this and 'big pixel' that in here, but when it comes to resolution, you want to have as many individual points in a given area that you can. Sort of like why you want a printer that does 4800x2400 dpi over one that does 1200x600 dpi... The former has a higer resolution.

Bigger pixels gather more light, and in dark (or shadow) conditions when light is scarce, a bigger sample means more signal and less noise.

A bigger sample also integrates more color information into the pixel, and the pixel is more accurate.

Finally, a biger pixel is less likely to be smaller than the lens's circle of confusion, and less likely to be dwarfed by the blur caused by lens faults.

I want as many pixels as you, but I want big pixels, too. The solution is the camera I'm saving up for: the Pentax 645 Digital with a 36x43mm 18-MP sensor. I guarantee you that such a sensor will create better images than an 18-MP sensor with similar generation of technology stuffed into a 15x23mm format.

If I can already see lens faults with my 10D sensor, and if lens faults already control the size enlargement I make, then having more pixels doesn't get me anything except more processing requirements.

The most effective combination is a sensor with just small enough pixels to allow great lenses to show their stuff, which means enough sensor resolution so that the lens will always control the size of the enlargement. We already know how good lenses can get--the very best lenses have not improved in absolute terms in decades. By that I mean that there is no 50mm lens of current technology that noticeably out-resolves, say, a 50mm Summicron. Lens advances have been more directed at making zooms and extreme lenses far better--nearly as good as those prime lenses that have been good for a long time.

When lenses control the quality, adding pixels requires adding sensor size and going to larger formats. Great lenses and sensors make smaller formats workable (just as great lenses and film made small film formats workable), but those lens and sensor technologies can then be scaled back up to the larger formats where they can achieve more, just as with film.

Rick "format is king" Denney


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GyRob
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Oct 16, 2006 15:00 |  #41

surfologist wrote in post #2112643 (external link)
If someone has a 300 2.8 IS and a 400 2.8 IS im sure they wont be shooting with an XT/XTi... well hopefully

er i put a 500f4isL and 300f2.8isL on my 400d seem's to work ok :)
Rob.


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surfologist
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Oct 16, 2006 15:20 |  #42

Im sure it did... Those lenses would make everything, even a nikon look good.. :razz:
Serioulsy, any good lens will take great pics on any camera, even on a base line camera.

I was just thinking it would be funny.. some sort of pun, kinda... to have a $6500 lens on a $800 dollar camera...

Nothing against it, I would take a 400 or even a 300mm 2.8 on mt XT any day!


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Overkilling the sensor
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