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Thread started 16 Oct 2006 (Monday) 17:05
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Macro and/or combo for outdoors?

 
Mollym/CA
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Oct 16, 2006 17:05 |  #1

I need to or like to shoot very small subjects in the field. That means on the side of a mountain or the bank of a river or wherever. I'll use my present lenses forever and have the Canon 24/105mm EFL, a Canon extension tube, and 2x and 1.4x extender lenses for the telephotos. I'm not happy with the depth of field with the extension tube. Can anyone suggest a combination of lenses (I'm not against buying a lense or lens addition) that will give me good macro capability (say, enough to make a ladybug fill the field) and the best possible depth of field?

Molly




  
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LightRules
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Oct 16, 2006 19:08 |  #2

How about a dedicated macro lens, like the Canon 100 or Sigma 150?




  
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Mollym/CA
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Oct 17, 2006 09:43 |  #3

LightRules wrote in post #2129012 (external link)
How about a dedicated macro lens like the Canon 100

OK, that's the one I keep looking at but I don't know enough about lenses to figure out if the 100 will get me 'closer' than the 24/105 at the same physical distance. (And that L-lens is a spoiler). Would the extension tube work the same with either --cut down the light and depth of field the same amount?

Molly




  
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Lester ­ Wareham
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Oct 17, 2006 10:41 |  #4

Mollym/CA wrote in post #2128541 (external link)
I need to or like to shoot very small subjects in the field. That means on the side of a mountain or the bank of a river or wherever. I'll use my present lenses forever and have the Canon 24/105mm EFL, a Canon extension tube, and 2x and 1.4x extender lenses for the telephotos. I'm not happy with the depth of field with the extension tube. Can anyone suggest a combination of lenses (I'm not against buying a lense or lens addition) that will give me good macro capability (say, enough to make a ladybug fill the field) and the best possible depth of field?

Molly

A dedicated macro lens like the EF 100mm f2.8 macro USM will be easier to use and give better results.

The issue about depth of field is one you can't get around with closeup work. The depth of field does change slightly with a lens parameter inderectly related to focal length, there are equations (external link) to describe this but it is not all that helpfull in the field.

The best thing is to use a tripod and stop down to the diffration limit of around f11 to f16 for magnifications of 1 to infinity focus. If you have to work handheld get some flash, I would recommend the MT-24EX macro twin flash if budget is not an issue.

If this still gives insufficient focus try focus stacking either using layers in photoshop or by using focus stack software.


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Mollym/CA
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Oct 17, 2006 19:43 |  #5

Lester Wareham wrote in post #2131631 (external link)
A dedicated macro lens like the EF 100mm f2.8 macro USM will be easier to use and give better results... If you have to work handheld get some flash, I would recommend the MT-24EX macro twin flash if budget is not an issue.

Better than the ring flash? I would sure like to see some pictures. No one is saying that either flash washes out the pictures --a problem I've had with the built-in and hot shoe flashes.

I notice that an Amazon reviewer who seems to be interested in the same minutiae as I comments that you can't see anything with the 68mm at 5x (so let the camera and flash do it), and another (who lives in the Arabian desert) says he uses his indoors (his palace no doubt) and it still sucks dust. That would seem to let me off dreaming about 5x magnification, but do you have anything to add? (Probably the impossible dream for monetary reasons no matter what--)

The issue about depth of field is one you can't get around ...

I don't want to, actually, beyond a certain point --being able to blur out all the junk is half the fun of macro. But I'd like to get a little further down into a flower than the tips of the anthers.

The best thing is to use a tripod and stop down

Tripods are impractical in rough ground and undergrowth but I do use a monopod when possible, or a wadded up jacket or something ;) if it's a mushroom right on the ground. The stopping down part should go better with the flash, if the 10D co-operates and allows the MT24 to do its stuff with an aperture-priority setting. (It has a setting to allow fill flash with the AV setting but I can't say the results have been stellar, so far)

If this still gives insufficient focus try focus stacking either using layers in photoshop or by using focus stack software.

Wow. What a demo. I'll see what my Photoshop books say about stacking with its layers. Surely there's some trick of adjusting transparency? (Probably explained right here when I get to those sections--)

Thanks a lot. I'm one click away from the 100mm Canon macro...

molly




  
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angryhampster
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Oct 17, 2006 19:48 |  #6

Make sure you take a hard look at the Sigma 150mm macro

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=138539


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Mollym/CA
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Oct 18, 2006 00:53 |  #7

angryhampster wrote in post #2134041 (external link)
Make sure you take a hard look at the Sigma 150mm macro

It seems so close to the Canon 28-135 that's now dedicated to my husband. Though the examples were impressive.




  
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Lester ­ Wareham
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Oct 18, 2006 05:44 |  #8

Mollym/CA wrote in post #2134017 (external link)
Better than the ring flash? I would sure like to see some pictures. No one is saying that either flash washes out the pictures --a problem I've had with the built-in and hot shoe flashes.
molly

The ring flashes have a number of issues. They give very flat lighting although the Canon on is in fact two half rings that you can control the ratio of. Ring flashed tend to give ring shaped highlights in reflective subjects.

The twin flash is wider apart and gives better modelling. The heads can be adjust for tilt and independantly roatated around the axis. The heads caneven be dismounted and used seperatly, they have little tripod screw threads in the bottom to aid this.

Any flash that is on axis will give flat boring light. So many get conventional flashes off axis using brackets.

Take a look at the macro section. If you don't mind bugs you can go through my bug shots on my web page, some of which are with the twin flash.

Mollym/CA wrote in post #2134017 (external link)
I notice that an Amazon reviewer who seems to be interested in the same minutiae as I comments that you can't see anything with the 68mm at 5x (so let the camera and flash do it), and another (who lives in the Arabian desert) says he uses his indoors (his palace no doubt) and it still sucks dust. That would seem to let me off dreaming about 5x magnification, but do you have anything to add? (Probably the impossible dream for monetary reasons no matter what--)

I guess you mean 65mm not 68mm. The MP-E 65mm is challenging to use and can not give lower magnification than life size. Thus you need a conventional macro lens also. I would suggest you start with an ordinary macro lens and get the hang of that unless yoy specifically need the magnification.

The MP-E can be used to 5X in the field but anything more than about 3X gets challenging. It is a fantastic lens and if you are into macro is a major reason to get a Canon camera; Nikon have nothing to touch it.

Having used bellows and macrophoto lenses in the past there is no way I would use those in the field.

If using the MP-E at high magnification I use a monopod with a lightweight ball head to held steady the rig for acurate focus.

I have not noticed a dust issue in particular with this lens, although it does grow in length by a factor of three between 1X and 5X.

Dust is an issue for macro work on DSLRs due to the large fstops numbers used, you will need to get used to cleaning your sensor and using the clone stamp.

Mollym/CA wrote in post #2134017 (external link)
"The issue about depth of field is one you can't get around "

I don't want to, actually, beyond a certain point --being able to blur out all the junk is half the fun of macro. But I'd like to get a little further down into a flower than the tips of the anthers.

"The best thing is to use a tripod and stop down"

Tripods are impractical in rough ground and undergrowth but I do use a monopod when possible, or a wadded up jacket or something ;) if it's a mushroom right on the ground. The stopping down part should go better with the flash, if the 10D co-operates and allows the MT24 to do its stuff with an aperture-priority setting. (It has a setting to allow fill flash with the AV setting but I can't say the results have been stellar, so far)

OK I use tripods with mushrooms. On flat ground I can get away with a general light weight pod. You might want to look at something like the benbo tripods  (external link)which are very flexible - rough ground is not an issue, nor is having a leg immersed in 2 ft of water. They have a lateral arm that can be used for low level work. I understand some of the top Gitzos have this sort of facility. I have had a benbo for 25 years, I recently replaced my old Gitzo head for a Kirk head (external link) when the Gitzo cracked.

If your fungi are very small you might want to get a focus slide from Kirk or Really Right Stuff.

Mollym/CA wrote in post #2134017 (external link)
"If this still gives insufficient focus try focus stacking either using layers in photoshop or by using focus stack software."

Wow. What a demo. I'll see what my Photoshop books say about stacking with its layers. Surely there's some trick of adjusting transparency? (Probably explained right here when I get to those sections--)

Thanks a lot. I'm one click away from the 100mm Canon macro...

molly

OK if you want to do this with layers all you do is copy each frame into the same PSD file as a layer (just select all, copy and past into the new doc.)

Select one pair and set the blend mode to difference, use the move tool to align them (ideally the shots cancel out and you get a black screen).

Switch the blend mode back to normal and add a mask to the upper layer. Select a black ink (assuming the mask is filled with white) and a soft edged brush with opacity and flow of 100%. Paint out where you want the layer below to show through.

It's easier to do than explain.

Finally you might want to have a look at my research page on macro hardware  (external link)which might have helpful info and links.

Im not sure if this will put you off or not but here is a shot of a greenfly taken at 4X with the MP-E 65mm in my garden. The lighting is the MT-24. This example is focus stacked from 2 frames.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO


And a mushroom, natural light, tripod 100mm macro, f16, probably about 3cm high
IMAGE NOT FOUND
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

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petrolhead
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Oct 18, 2006 06:01 |  #9

I have the Canon 100 macro and think it both an excellent macro lens but also a great 100mm lens. I have been pleasantly supprised as to how good it is as a normal lens, its just so sharp




  
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John_B
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Oct 18, 2006 06:49 |  #10

Mollym/CA,
Like others suggested, the Canon 100mm f/2.8 is an excellent lens for macro and other uses like portraits. If you don't want to use a tripod then a flash will be very helpful (if not needed) and if you use extension tubes &/or a TC an off shoe flash cord will open many more options :)
Here are some examples taken with a 5D without a tripod

Good Morning Earthworm taken with 100mm macro

IMAGE: http://johnbdigital.com/macro/earthworm.jpg
Click for SpecsIMAGE LINK: http://johnbdigital.co​m/macro/earthworm.htm  (external link)

A Dear Fly with 100mm macro & Kenko extension tubes
IMAGE: http://johnbdigital.com/macro/deer_fly.jpg
Click for SpecsIMAGE LINK: http://johnbdigital.co​m/macro/deer_fly.htm  (external link)

Having Lunch with 100mm macro 2xTC & Kenko extension tubes
IMAGE: http://johnbdigital.com/macro/7078.jpg
Click for SpecsIMAGE LINK: http://johnbdigital.co​m/macro/7078.htm  (external link)

Sony A6400, A6500, Apeman A80, & a bunch of Lenses.............  (external link)
click to see (external link)
JohnBdigital.com (external link)

  
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Mollym/CA
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Oct 18, 2006 12:17 as a reply to  @ Lester Wareham's post |  #11

Golly, what a gold mine of suggestions and advice. That took some time and I appreciate it more than I can say.

I've hardly met a bug I didn't love --good thing, too, in this place. If I could figure out how to embed a picture I'd prove it.

I would suggest you start with an ordinary macro lens and get the hang of that unless you specifically need the magnification.

Done. Wonder if anyone in the department my husband retired from uses the (and of course you guessed right)

I was rather amazed at the pictures I got just sticking the Powershot into an eyepiece of the dissecting scope, which happened to be sitting out indoors. I really should get some lighting or take it out in the sun and explore that some more.

I like to get under my mushrooms --even the little 'tabletop' legs on the monopod make the lens too high. Probably what I really need is a trowel --I could rest the lens on the edge of the hole dug for the camera ;)

All the money I'm saving from suggestions here could make this a very expensive forum!

Again, thanks.




  
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Macro and/or combo for outdoors?
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