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Thread started 25 Oct 2006 (Wednesday) 17:16
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Bill ­ Ng
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Oct 25, 2006 17:16 |  #1

This is mostly for the young'ins, but applies to all. This post has been on my mind for months, but I finally got motivated to throw it up after reading the "I have no cash and no credit but I'm going to buy a 30D" post.

For those of you that do not make money with your photography (like me), or who try to make money but don't actually make enough to cover the cost of their equipment ... let me throw some numbers your way.

If you're 18 years old, you have $2K in cash and a 300D ... you could spend that money on a 30D + lens or you could invest it. Let's assume you put that $2K in a simple index fund that returned an annualized 8% after expenses until you retired at 65 ... and let's assume that you never invested another DIME until your retirement. You'd have $68,948.17 in your account.

Be a little more diligent and invest $200 a month, or $2400 a year starting at the same age and getting the same return ... you'll retire with $1,086,960.37 ... yes, you read that number correctly. Let's say you make good investment choices by staying on top of the market and taking a little time each week to do some research on your own holdings ... instead of 8% you return 10% ... your nest egg is now worth $2,092,739.65

Remember, this is on $200 a month. Up the antee to $500 a month and you'll sit back in the Bahamas with a smile-bringing $5,231,849.12 in your account on that same 10% return.

Age is the key here. Time is your friend because in all of this, by the 8th year of investing, your annual return on your investment is actually adding more to your account than you are. In the 30th year of your investing, your annual return added almost $99K to your account ... much better than the $6K you added with your $500 a month. By the time you retire, the annual return on your investments is $475,077.19. If you manage to only spend $475K a year, you will get rewarded with the same amount until you die. Theoretically, more on that soon.

But ... like I said, age is the key. Blow your money when you're a kid and think, "I'll start investing next year, I want to have fun, I'm only young once" ... and the effect is nasty. Remember that $5.2mm return on $500 monthly returning 10% starting at 18 and ending at 65? That cools to a svelt $1.6mm if you start at age 30 instead of age 18.

And don't think that you don't "need" that much money when you retire ... you'll do fine on less. While the idea of returning 8 or 10% annually AFTER you retire is a nice one, the reality is that as you approach retirement age and your nest egg has grown, a down market can wreak havoc on your net worth so sensible people will move farther and farther away from stocks (higher returns) and on into bonds and fixed-return investments like the good old certificate of deposit. So the reality is that as you spend your retirement money, your nest gets smaller.

Will your nest egg need to last you until you're 103? With tomorrow's medicine, who knows? Maybe it only needs to last you until you're 70 ... maybe you have a stress induced heart attack before you're 45. There are a lot of unknowns, but the LAST thing you want to do is have to move into some low-income retirement home. For those of you who are young ... your grandparents had it EASY. More than likely they had jobs that provided them with a pension, they had a government that kinda worked and provided Social Security.

You don't have that. You have nothing. I work for one of the top 3 largest financial institutions in the world and as of last year, there are no more pensions for new hires. Our Social Security system is a joke, it will probably no longer exist in 10 years. If you don't do something about your future, and NOW, you will not retire. It's easy to say, "No biggie, if I can't afford to retire at 65, I'll just work until I die". See how you feel about that when you're 67, your arthritis is so bad it hurts to hold your morning cup of cofee, you've already had a hip replaced, and every now and again you get a hernia for doing little more than picking up your 20-pound grandson. Is that a grim picture .. yes, but how many people do you know that are 70 years old and functioning perfectly?

There are some rich people on these forums, I mean that seriously. What I also notice, is that there are a lot of people who spend a lot more than they should. For those of you that are young and have some money, or worse, some credit ... think about how you're going to feel when you've worked your arse off for 40 years and when you finally retire, you don't have enough money to travel or enjoy the things in life you always wanted to enjoy. My grandmother sits in her apartment 6 days a week until one of her kids comes and takes her out to food shop and get some lunch/dinner. She goes on 1 cruise a year if she's lucky ... she hasn't enough money to do any more. Don't be her.

For anyone that doesn't know the first thing about investing and wants a short tutorial or has some specific questions ... throw me a PM, I'll be happy to answer. I will not give specific stock advice, but I'll try to show you some of the options that are available to you.

Bill


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Cybnew
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Oct 25, 2006 20:34 |  #2

Where is the fun in that? You need an 18 (me...well 17) year old's perspective. Most of us think little about the future. We live a carpe diem sort of life. We figure we will make our fortunes after college, like "most" people. However, the money we willingly throw towards gear and fun stuff (like me, who in the past 2 months, has spent almost $1600 on gear). Now I know the value of investing, I have some very financially intellegent people close to me, yet i still find it hard to put my money away month after month knowing it will be accessable later in life. Then again, money means little to me at the tender young age of 17 (with said exception of gear), and I undoubtably will look back on this post in 50 years and wish I had listened to you (though I know I wont). Hopefully, however, someone my age will be intellegent enough to take the wonderful information you have supplied, and benifit from it. As for me, It's sieze the day, spend the cash. Thank you though, Bill, for taking the time to post the information, and for allowing everyone to pm their questions to you. That is an opprotunity most (old any young) should take advantage of.

Mat


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Bill ­ Ng
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Oct 25, 2006 22:00 |  #3

Cybnew wrote in post #2169611 (external link)
Where is the fun in that? You need an 18 (me...well 17) year old's perspective. Most of us think little about the future. We live a carpe diem sort of life. We figure we will make our fortunes after college, like "most" people. However, the money we willingly throw towards gear and fun stuff (like me, who in the past 2 months, has spent almost $1600 on gear). Now I know the value of investing, I have some very financially intellegent people close to me, yet i still find it hard to put my money away month after month knowing it will be accessable later in life. Then again, money means little to me at the tender young age of 17 (with said exception of gear), and I undoubtably will look back on this post in 50 years and wish I had listened to you (though I know I wont). Hopefully, however, someone my age will be intellegent enough to take the wonderful information you have supplied, and benifit from it. As for me, It's sieze the day, spend the cash. Thank you though, Bill, for taking the time to post the information, and for allowing everyone to pm their questions to you. That is an opprotunity most (old any young) should take advantage of.

Mat

Well Matt,

You definitely sound like you understand the problem more than the average Joe, but I'm not exactly old. I'm not even 30 yet. When I was 23 years old, I was worth approx $1.5mm ... margin calls and the crash of 2000 saw the end of that, but at one point I had a check in my hand, made out to me, for $101K .... I blew it in one summer and have regretted it every year since.

I definitely do understand where you come from. I have parents that don't know the first thing about money and will be working for the rest of the their lives, there is no doubt about that ... learning about money from them, I spent twice as much as I earned. Until I was 25, I really thought that the way a person aquired things was to buy it on credit and pay off the cards little by little. The idea of saving money was truely foreign.

I'm not saying that you can't live your life, I'm saying that you should do your best to put as much away now as possible. It's not about saving your money. Saving does nothing, your money doesn't work for you. It's about investing, having your money make a return so that one day, your money makes more money for you.

You're 17. You can talk about "making your millions" "like everyone else does" when you're older, but it's just a wee bit harder than you make it sound. If you spend the rest of your life making no more than $40K a year, you can retire rich if you make the right choices. Defending your decision to make bad choices ... doesn't do anything for you.

Bill


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Oct 25, 2006 22:48 |  #4

I totally side with you Bill. I actually do plan on investing very soon, I just felt like spouting off some general stereotypes. I am actually starting to get a good grasp on business. I am in econ for my senior year, and one of our class projects was to start a business...basically..​.the business is carried by 3 students (out of the whole 30) and our coach. Our coach wants to continue this out of class, because as of now, with little over a month into this endevour, we have sold our compliation cd on presale (our order goes out tomorrow) and, since we are returning all profit to the shareholders (we sold 75 shares in order to raise capitol) we will be showing over a 600% return on investment. While in our case, the actual amount of money is not that significant, the fact that we are returning their investment is. If our basic princeples were applied on a large scale, than our business is functioning on the same scale as multimillion dollar companies (ok..kind of at least :) ) I would like to talk finances with you sometime soon.

Mat


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Oct 25, 2006 22:58 |  #5

Very very good post. Makes me think twice about splurging on a 1D.


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Oct 26, 2006 01:41 |  #6

I have parents who are financial advisors. They would NEVER have let me get a 30D at 17 if I didn't actually have saved the cash up myself, and even then they'd probably think I was absolutely nuts. Heck, they were a bit sceptic at the 300D at first.

Like my mom once told me; Don't spend what you don't have, and spend what you have wisely.

As for retirement, you really expect a 17y/o to think about that?? Most 17y/o's think about how to afford a driver's license, a car, their own place etc. You do have very valid points though, money should be invested as well as spent. But I believe you should also spend some, no fun otherwise if you just save and save, but never spend.


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Oct 26, 2006 02:27 as a reply to  @ Claire's post |  #7

I'm 13, I was curious (I have a decent amount of Barmitzvah money), if I was to invest say 3000-4000 now and leave it till I was 65, would my number be expotentiolly bigger?


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Oct 26, 2006 03:00 |  #8

I've been saving monthly for my kids since they were born (they are now 6 and 3) by the time they are 25 they be able to afford my retirement! :)


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Claire
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Oct 26, 2006 03:16 |  #9

My parents saved money every month since I was born, then I got money during birthdays etc put into my account as well. I have a nice sum there now. :)


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Oct 26, 2006 08:48 |  #10

Claire wrote in post #2170581 (external link)
I have parents who are financial advisors. They would NEVER have let me get a 30D at 17 if I didn't actually have saved the cash up myself, and even then they'd probably think I was absolutely nuts. Heck, they were a bit sceptic at the 300D at first.

I had the cash, and I didnt exactally tell them before I bought it :)


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Big ­ WIll
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Oct 26, 2006 09:01 |  #11

3 Years ago,
I wanted to invest in google, i told my dad... He said he would! Did it ever happen!!!

NO

Now look at it!
Everyone 'google its' and im no better off!
:(


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Oct 26, 2006 09:08 |  #12

was it 3 years ago that the ipo came out?, and actually, investors are starting to say that google isnt a good stock to hold onto, so dont be too upset Big Will


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Bill ­ Ng
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Oct 26, 2006 09:33 |  #13

JaGWiRE wrote in post #2170684 (external link)
I'm 13, I was curious (I have a decent amount of Barmitzvah money), if I was to invest say 3000-4000 now and leave it till I was 65, would my number be expotentiolly bigger?

A $4K investment on your 13th birthday, returning an annualized 8% will turn into $202K when you retire. A 9% return will be worth $324K. 10% will get you $516K

Pull a Warren Buffet ... return an annualized 30% until you're 65 and that 1-time $4K investment will be worth 2.589bb (for those who don't know what "bb" stands for, that's BILLION)

I've got a simple little spreadsheet that give you a few ways of calculating out retirement amounts. PM me if anyone wants me to email it to them. Playing with the numbers is not only eye opening, but addicting =)

Bill


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Bill ­ Ng
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Oct 26, 2006 09:53 |  #14

Cybnew wrote in post #2171565 (external link)
was it 3 years ago that the ipo came out?, and actually, investors are starting to say that google isnt a good stock to hold onto, so dont be too upset Big Will

No stock is good to hold on to. If you want to make money in the stock market, you pick a company, you do your research, you invest if you think the stock is going to move (You think it's overvalued, undervalued, it's managment is crap, the market is softening, whatever ...) ... and once it's made its move, you pull and look for the next kill.

Stocks are valued by the success or lackthereof of the underlying company. Always keep the company in mind. Company's are run by people, and people make mistakes ... or, as has been recently outlined, they fudge numbers. You should NEVER plan on buying a stock and holding on to it for years. You do research before you buy a stock, and then you do continual research after you buy it .... you need to understand what is happening with the company. I'm not saying you need to be trading stock every day, but you need to know WHY you're making the bet that you're making, and you need to act when it happens, or when it doesn't happen.

If you don't have the time or the energy to do something like this, then you need to look at mutual funds, index funds, ETFs, and other basket-style investments that spread your monies across multiple securities.

Google was a GREAT stock to be in. Good management, LOTS OF CASH (that was the key), a working income model, and increasing market-share. Google was pricing between $100 and $200 a share back in 2004 and as of this second its worth $486 a share. That's one helluva move.

Bill


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Oct 26, 2006 10:00 |  #15

Bill Ng wrote in post #2168874 (external link)
This is mostly for the young'ins, but applies to all. This post has been on my mind for months, but I finally got motivated to throw it up after reading the "I have no cash and no credit but I'm going to buy a 30D" post.

For those of you that do not make money with your photography (like me), or who try to make money but don't actually make enough to cover the cost of their equipment ... let me throw some numbers your way.

... ... ... Bill

This is a true story and has not yet fully played out…

My brother-in-law pretty much followed your path. He is a compulsive saver, has been his entire life. They rarely go on vacations, have just the bare essentials in the way of stereos, TVs, cameras and such, basically living a frugal life. He has amassed quite a nest egg over the and has over 5 mil. Now that he approaching his mid-50s and is contemplating retirement, his wife, my sister-in law comes down with cancer and it is going to be a real rough road ahead and the outcome is uncertain.

I was chatting with him a few days back and he said to me that he was always jealous of my wife and I. He was jealous that we had done so much and had so many stories to tell and always seemed to on the go looking forward to the next adventure.

My point is that you can never know what lies ahead and though you should plan for the future, it can’t come at the expense of today. You have only one go around, there are no do-overs. There has to be a middle ground. You have to live each day as if it your last and plan for the future as well.


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