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Thread started 13 Nov 2006 (Monday) 02:40
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'M' for moron?

 
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Bill ­ Ng
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Nov 13, 2006 07:09 |  #16

farrukh wrote in post #2255515 (external link)
AV is better for start i think. My boss doesn't know what is exposure and exposure compensation so i suggested him start with AV mode. in bright sunny day use f/8 and then to get blurry background or in dark situation use small AV value etc. He did well in most conditions. next step i'll learn him what is shutter so he will start using M mode.

Please read my previous post before you regress your boss' learning.

Bill


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cwphoto
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Nov 13, 2006 07:10 |  #17

Bill Ng wrote in post #2255455 (external link)
I've posted a huge rant about this before ... but I'd like to remind everyone again that M brings you absolutely nothing over Av or Tv. In non-flash situations M brings you nothing but slower shooting. M is there for situations where the internal light meter cannot be trusted.

Putting your camera in M, selecting an aperture of f/4 and rotating the other wheel until the exposure indicator is dead in the middle of the graph is the exact same thing as putting your camera in Av and half-depressing the shutter. The difference of course, is that it takes your camera a fraction of a second to do it while it takes you a lot longer than that.

Putting your camera in M, selecting a shutter speed of 1/125 and rotating the other wheel until the exposure indicator is dead in the middle of the graph is the exact same thing as putting your camera in Tv and half-depressing the shutter. The difference of course, is that it takes your camera a fraction of a second to do it while it takes you a lot longer than that.

For those situations where you need to under or overexpose (as compared to what the internal light-meter thinks is correct) ... in Av or Tv you would simply rotate the exposure compensation dial (which would be exactly what you'd have to do in M mode as well, only again, this would take less time).

As I mentioned in my rant, I understand that some people will have some situations that would necessitate M ... I was using a lot of flash indoors this weekend and set it on M for a few hours for instance ... but for 98% of the photos I see posted on POTN ... Av or Tv would be all that's necessary.

And for the record, being in M mode doesn't "teach you about exposure" ... it does little more than teach you an extremely inefficient method of shooting.

Bill

...or for those of us who still like to use an external light meter. ;)


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Bill ­ Ng
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Nov 13, 2006 07:17 |  #18

cwphoto wrote in post #2255600 (external link)
...or for those of us who still like to use an external light meter. ;)

Yep ... that definitely qualifies. Does anyone use those things anymore :lol: (joking, joking)


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mdr
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Nov 13, 2006 07:24 |  #19

Use Tv for action (wildlife), use Av for lanscapes, and use M for very tricky shots when the max. 2 stops exposure compensation is not sufficient, when I've got my Nikkor lens on the body.


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SkipD
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Nov 13, 2006 07:37 |  #20

cwphoto wrote in post #2255600 (external link)
...or for those of us who still like to use an external light meter. ;)

Right on....

In my opinion, the best way for someone to learn about exposure is not to use a built-in meter with the various degrees of accompanying automation, but to use a handheld meter and manual settings on a camera. That way the student can more easily learn about relationship between shutter speed, aperture, and ISO settings (ISA film speed for us old buggers). Once the basics are mastered, then one can progress to using a greater variety of tools for various reasons.

This concept is the same that I suggest for teaching/learning any craft skill set - woodworking, welding, painting, or whatever. Start with the simplest basics and progress from there once the basics are mastered.

Back to exposure - I often use my handheld meter when shooting outdoor events such as the soapbox derby I recently photographed. The handheld meter is usually in incident mode and using it that way allows me to quickly check the level of the lighting itself. I make a small tweak to the camera settings as the lighting level changes. When using this technique, I will use the built-in meter only as an indicator that things may be changing but will usually check the incident meter before deciding to change the camera settings.

You may ask why I work using this method. It's because a reflected light meter - especially one which built into the camera and functioning automatically when you take each shot - can often be fooled by the subject's color and reflectivity when shooting a variety of subjects in the same lighting with little or no time to set up individually for each shot. When I use incident readings, I usually have far better consistency in my exposures for an outdoor event than I would using purely automatic exposure control by the camera.


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cwphoto
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Nov 13, 2006 07:42 |  #21

SkipD wrote in post #2255668 (external link)
Right on....
You may ask why I work using this method. It's because a reflected light meter - especially one which built into the camera and functioning automatically when you take each shot - can often be fooled by the subject's color and reflectivity when shooting a variety of subjects in the same lighting with little or no time to set up individually for each shot. When I use incident readings, I usually have far better consistency in my exposures for an outdoor event than I would using purely automatic exposure control by the camera.

Yep, the wedding photographer's best friend too. ;)


EOS-1D X Mark II| EOS 5D Mark IV | EOS 80D | EOS-1V HS
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Marquis ­ Photos
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Nov 13, 2006 07:43 |  #22

I shoot in M 95% of the time. When speed is needed and have no time to take test shots, I will shoot in Program. You have much more control over how your image will look in manual. As smart as the cameras are now days, they still can't read my mind and know how I want the image exposed.


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KCMO ­ Al
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Nov 13, 2006 07:59 |  #23

Minor correction to SkipD's post:
ASA = American Standards Association (not ISA)
ISO = International Standards Organization
ASA was converted to ISO and they are identical.
Film also used to be dual rated, ASA and DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm). So film used to come listed as 800/30, meaning the ASA was 800 and the DIN was 30.


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Photorebel
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Nov 13, 2006 08:06 |  #24

Bill Ng wrote in post #2255455 (external link)
And for the record, being in M mode doesn't "teach you about exposure" ... it does little more than teach you an extremely inefficient method of shooting.
Bill

M mode taught me about exposure, in that often I ignored meter readings and relied on my own exposure estimates..usually I was right. However, I agree...
if you're shooting in M, and just adjusting the Shutter or aperture until the
meter lines up in the middle, you may as well shoot in AV or TV mode.
That isn't really shooting in manual.
I like what an earlier poster said...that they use whatever mode necessary to get the shot. That's the bottom line..getting the shot.


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Patrick ­ S
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Nov 13, 2006 08:07 |  #25

Marquis Photos wrote in post #2255688 (external link)
You have much more control over how your image will look in manual. As smart as the cameras are now days, they still can't read my mind and know how I want the image exposed.

I understand what you're saying, but in Av mode, you can still use your Av+/- button to adjust the exposure compensation to +/- 2 stops, so for most practical purposes, doesn't aperture priority offer about as much "control" as manual mode?




  
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KevC
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Nov 13, 2006 08:07 |  #26

I'm pretty confident in knowing how everything works, but I usually shoot Av or M. Nothing wrong with somebody heavily shooting Tv though.


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Nov 13, 2006 08:13 |  #27

Patrick S wrote in post #2255746 (external link)
I understand what you're saying, but in Av mode, you can still use your Av+/- button to adjust the exposure compensation to +/- 2 stops, so for most practical purposes, doesn't aperture priority offer about as much "control" as manual mode?

Not if the reflectance of your subject is changing.


EOS-1D X Mark II| EOS 5D Mark IV | EOS 80D | EOS-1V HS
L: 14/2.8 II | 17/4 | 24/1.4 II | 24/3.5 II | 35/1.4 II | 50/1.2 | 85/1.2 II | 100/2.8 Macro IS | 135/2 | 180/3.5 Macro | 200/2.8 II | 300/2.8 IS III | 400/2.8 IS III | 500/4 IS III | 600/4 IS III | 8-15/4 Fisheye | 11-24/4 | 16-35/2.8 III | 24-70/2.8 II | 70-200/2.8 IS III | 100-400/4.5-5.6 IS II | 200-400/4 IS 1.4x
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farrukh
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Nov 13, 2006 08:29 |  #28

Bill Ng wrote in post #2255598 (external link)
Please read my previous post before you regress your boss' learning.

Bill

I did read it. I also use AV 90% of time because of the reason you mentioned above. I just want him to get fimilar with M mode. But I'm sure AV will remain his fav mode always.


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Ves
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Nov 13, 2006 08:40 |  #29

I've had to use full manual with my AE-1, so I've been using Av or Tv lately because it's easier :P

EDIT: Whoops, didn't notice the new page. Kind of discrupted the discussion :P



  
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SkipD
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Nov 13, 2006 08:40 |  #30

KCMO Al wrote in post #2255730 (external link)
Minor correction to SkipD's post:
ASA = American Standards Association (not ISA)
ISO = International Standards Organization
ASA was converted to ISO and they are identical.
Film also used to be dual rated, ASA and DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm). So film used to come listed as 800/30, meaning the ASA was 800 and the DIN was 30.

Thanks for jogging the memory cells. It was early in the morning when I wrote the last post, and ISA is a commonly seen mnemonic in my business (it stands for Instrument Society of America). Stuff happens.. :rolleyes:


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